Killing the MSX games

[A.G.]

As MGS5 approaches, I can't help but to think if it will help or hurt the series. I have little doubt that the game will be a technical masterpiece, Kojima's games usually are. But what about the story? Let's take a look at what we currently have to help understand what MGS5 could bring.


Metal Gear (1995): Big Boss is the commander of Fox-Hound. When news of Metal Gear development are reported it is viewed as a major threat and Fox-Hound is sent to take it down. Big Boss runs the operation. The main plot twist is at the end Big Boss reveals that he runs Outer Heaven.

MGS3 (1964): Naked Snake is a loyal soldier who ends up being forced to kill his mentor as part of his mission. Killing her gives him the Big Boss title but makes him question his loyalty as a soldier. The ending shows the character of Big Boss torn between loyalty to his country and loyalty to his own beliefs.


Now, if you just look at these two games,the story flow is perfect. At the end of MGS3 we are not sure about where Big a Boss stands. As such, it's perfectly rational that he is running Fox-Hound and Outer Heaven. It also makes his reveal in MG1 both shocking yet justified. You get both, the surprise and the logical justification for his actions. But what happens if you start throwing in new info into the mix?


Peace Walker (1974): Big Boss is running his own military company complete with an army, a Metal Gear, and a nuke. Zero is also aware of his actions thanks to Miller and Paz. At the end Big Boss calls it Outer Heaven.

MGS5 (1975): Big Boss' army is destroyed and he falls into a coma. Safe to assume Zero is pulling the strings here.

MGS5 (1984): Big Boss wakes up and seemingly starts to build a new army. Backstory given in MG1 says that Outer Heaven was built by a legendary mercenary in the 80's. So it's safe to assume Outer Heaven will be established by the end of the game.


Now if you play the games in order the story is broken. Now you know what Big Boss does. So the reveal in MG1 is meaningless. What's more, it makes no sense why he is running Fox-Hound and is in charge of the operation to take down his own stronghold. This is somewhat similar to how Star Wars Episode 3 ruined the greatest moment in Episode 5. "I am your father" is no longer a shocking reveal.

Additionally we have to consider technological issues. Why is Outer Heaven a threat with TX-55 when MSF had Zeke 20 years earlier? Why were REX and RAY so classified when the CIA had giant walking tanks in the 70's? Heck, a line in the MGS5 mentions a weapon that surpasses Metal Gear. So Metal Gears are running around in the 70's with heavy involvement of the government and by the 80's it's not even the best weapon. This KILLS not just the MSX games but the early Solid titles as well. Think about it.

Why is TX-55 a threat? It's nothing compared to Peace Walker or Zeke.
Why is Metal Gear so classified? It's been a US government project before and by the 80's something surpassed it.
Why are the mecha from the 70's so much faster and more agile than the 90's or the new millennium?


Given what we already have, I fear MGS5 will bring nothing but harm to the overall story...

[blackjaguar]

I see what you mean, I do wish they had tried to keep the weaponry in Peace Walker more primitive. AI's were a bit much for the 70's and it does Jar with the storyline, but in the End gameplay does come first and those Boss Battles were incredibly fun.
I try to imagine the TX55 has some extra ability that Doctor Madnar came up with that makes it a Terror :-) but yeah TX55 does seem rather tame.

[A.G.]

Even REX seems slow and clumsy compared to the Peace Walker mecha.

[fgdj2000]

The games are not meant to be played in chronological order. A Prequel is always a sequel that just happens to be set at an earlier point in the timeline... prequels usually play with what the audience does know about the outcome of events. The difference with the Star Wars Movies was, that George Lucas tried to turn it all into some kind of 12h citizen kane character epic and pretended that everything was planned out from the get go when in reality it was actually very improvised (until 1979 drafts of Empire Strikes Back, Father Skywalker and Darth Vader were two different characters... Anakin even appears as a ghost in the first draft of Empire).

The continuity has become a clusterf...ck, but that doesn't make them bad games imo. It takes away from the illusion. As for Peace Walker's mechs: maybe Huey was a genius? Maybe no one could keep up with Huey and after what happened in PW he vowed to never build such a weapon again - there is a very obvious falling out between Big Boss and Huey in MGS5 (torture sequences). Maybe Madnar was the first who could even remotely design anything like Peace Walker or ZEKE, although very clumsy. I just think you are reading into the wrong details. "Don't obsess over words so much, find the meaning behind the words, then decide."

[A.G.]

That's the problem, there is no meaning behind the words anymore. There is no deep thought.

Hey, I want to make a Pokemon style MGS because my kids like it. Oh, and tying Monster Hunter to it wold be awesome too.

That's about all the meaning behind the creation of MPW.

[fgdj2000]

I disagree. PW shows how ideals can be twisted, how you start something small and innocent (MSF) with ideals (trying to protect a defenseless country) and before you know it, it becomes twisted and gaudy (Big Boss is knee deep in Militarization, creating super weapons and pretty impressive private army that doesn't need to justify its actions to anyone). This strongly ties into MGS4, which was all about how ideals can be twisted through misinterpretation.

If you think, Kojima is a sellout, yes, he is, but it's more complicated: Snake and Miller are very much about the conflict between ideals and business... kind of where Kojima often finds himself. Snake wants to fight the good fight and not just become a mercenary to fight for anyone who pays the best price. However in order for MSF to survive he has to make deals and sell his services... which is where Miller comes in and says "Hey, we are a business, not mercenaries!" I think Kojima also wants to do creative stuff with games and wanted to do a portable game. But he is also expected to appeal to a mass audience and do more Metal Gear. So, yeah, he does want or feels the need to sell, but at least he tries to get some meaningful elements in there, which is more than you can say about most other developers.

If you complain about Peace Walker having lost its meaning, how about MGS4, a game, that Kojima felt forced to make?!! Kojima made the game for the fans because everyone missed the highly meta-narrative point of MGS2 and not because he wanted to finish the story or convey an ideal. Heck, even MGS3 was a lot about proving that he didn't just f*** up MGS2 (you just have to watch the E3 Taglines: Can MGS survive?). So why is it suddenly with Peace Walker, that people start complaining about it?

[Cerberus_0408]

So why is it suddenly with Peace Walker, that people start complaining about it?

Because many people feel that MGS has had its time despite Kojima receiving death threats, and like CoD, it has to die out sooner or later.

[fgdj2000]

I don't think so. I think the Big Boss story is interesting, because I'm a sucker for stories where good people turn "evil", and I think the games Kojima makes are still pretty good. I understand why people want to preserve the saga aspect of the series and the overall storyline and to them my sympathies. But that view of the series as a saga was really only there build-up to the release of MGS4. But I have come to know the series as a set of more or less self-contained episodes. Yes, they are interconnected and one game's story plays into the events of another game, but each game also stands pretty much on his own. Heck, MGS1,2 and 3 each have different protagnists. MGS4 while sporting a ton of fan-service and forcefully tying everything together, is also the story of an old man, trying to do right one last time. Peace Walker is also the stand alone story of a man trying to cope with a loss in his recent past. But hey, if you don't like them, don't play them. But calling out Kojima, one of very few people that actually try and be creative within the industry, is just unfair. Naughty Dog just does what has been done, and puts it into a repetetive sequence of setpieces and attaches an admittedly excellent story and presentation on it to cover the actual tediousness of some of the gameplay.

[Cerberus_0408]

Naughty Dog indeed took some time off Uncharted to make The Last of Us (an awesome game, many sources tell me), which is rather timely given how the UC's are so f...cking similar. I bet it'll be ND's first PS4 game, probably with some sort of story about the Freemasons and the gold they have stashed under the Pentagon.

[fgdj2000]

Haven't you paid attention to the news? Uncharted 4 is coming out this year on PS4. Although technically their first PS4 game was their last PS3 game xD.

[Cerberus_0408]

Yeah, and I'll be hyped to f...ck for it!