fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on May 26, 2016 4:59:12 GMT -5
What I mean by that first part, is that a prequel is almost always meant to be watched/experienced/played in the order in which it was released, after the original game. So, Peace Walker doesn't have to keep the fact that Big Boss runs Outer Heaven a secret, so that it can be the twist in MG1, which is what especially A.G. criticised.
I don't really have a problem with Zeke, Peace Walker or Sahelanthropus. I mean, Huey was obviously a genius and maybe after how powerful Peace Walker and later Zeke were, the US didn't want to play with that type of fire anymore, because of too many risks... until 30 years later when a new generation and a new government thought otherwise... plays kind of nicely into the themes of the whole series, actually. Sahelanthropus was an unfinished prototype that didn't even work correctly unless Kid Mantis used his powers and supported it. So, not exactly a success.
Zero and Big Boss: Have you been paying attention to the series at all? MGSV actually corrects these discrepancies. Zero was poisoned by Skull Face and pretty much tried to enlist Big Boss' help. He then falls into a vegetative state (as seen in MGS4) and the A.I.s or some prototype verions go online much eartlier than we originally thought. And since MSF was distroyed, there was no Outer Heaven when they went operational. And Diamond Dogs was a new beast entirely and I doubt many people outside of Skull Face, Miller, Ocelot & Co. knew that "Big Boss" was running DD and far less knew who actually was running DD (namely the Phantom Big Boss). And from here it is not that big of a stretch to assume that the real Big Boss founded Outer Heaven in secret, while under the radar and that DD was absorbed into OH... all while keeping Big Boss' involvement a secret; with Big Boss running Fox-Hound and Venom Snake being the face of Outer Heaven for the soldiers involved with Outer Heaven.
Is it convoluted? Yes. Does it still make sense? Pretty much. If you want to pick one game to blame, pick MGS4, this is where the real plot holes started creaping up. MGSPW and MGSV were actually very much concerned with damage control in that regard.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on May 26, 2016 7:14:17 GMT -5
Then explain this MGS5 mistake, from the wiki:
"The war between Big Boss and Zero is largely retconned. Specifically, Zero had been in a vegetative state since 1984 at the most and that said condition had been brought about by Skull Face via vocal cord parasites that he manipulated Zero into infecting himself with via a pin of a deceased accomplice of The Boss back in Rayforce, and he had the AI system created as early as 1977 in order to implement his will due to Skull Face with Big Boss's separation playing little role in the event. Zero attempted to make peace with Big Boss during the latter's coma, and was also not involved at all with Big Boss's coup d'états, let alone placing him into a nanomachine-induced coma, creating the FOXDIE virus that killed him or turning Frank Jaeger into a cyborg. It was also shown that Ocelot and Big Boss were aware of Zero's ailing status.
In Metal Gear Solid 4, it was mentioned that Big Boss's coup d'états were the reason why the Patriots AIs were commissioned by Zero, that Zero gave the order to preserve Big Boss as an icon, respectively, and it was implied that his vegetative state in 2014 was simply due to Zero growing old and that he had entered such a state some time after 2005."
Not sure if I share your opinion. I mean, if Kojima wasn't psychologically ill, why the hell would he establish some facts in MGS4 only to change them when MGS5, a NEWER game, came out? Whoever thinks straight would under NO circumstances do anything like that. If I were him, I would have concrete facts in MGS4 (for example) and avoid retconning if possible, but if I absolutely HAD to create retcons, then I'd include those mistakes in MGS5.
You must also remember: If PW was officially a Kojima-directed MGS5, something he supposedly WANTED to make, why the f...ck are there SO MANY glaring inconsistencies with the plot as compared to the other games??
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on May 26, 2016 10:54:40 GMT -5
The thing is, we didn't really know much about the war between Zero and Big Boss to begin with, only the bits that EVA, Ocelot and Big Boss himself told us. Big Boss was more concerned with the aftermath and the A.I. stuff, so he didn't actually say much and the stuff that EVA and Ocelot (who was still overtaken by his Liquid Ocelot persona) told us and where just really vague. Also they didn't make sense with what was established in the older games, particularily Big Boss' vision of Outer Heaven. In MGS4 it seems as though the main reason for Outer Heaven to exist was to overthrow Zero and his Patriots, but if that was the case, why didn't Big Boss just tell Snake that outright in MG1 or MG2? MPW and MGSV establish that Big Boss rejects The Boss' will and goes about doing his own thing and by the end of PW he establishes an early Outer Heaven. Then that gets blown to bits, Big Boss is in a coma, Zero is poisoned by parasites. Nine years later Zero has probably already created an early A.I. and is in vegetative state while Big Boss uses a doppelganger to hunt down Skull Face while he establishes a new Outer Heaven. The Patriots are a mch smaller part in the equasion here, which makes sense, since they didn't really seem to truly matter until the late 2000s. It brings back the Big Boss who embraces warfare and creates Outer Heaven for that and doesn't really care for the patriots. It unifies the MG2 Big Boss and the MGS4 Big Boss in a way.
I think you have a completely wrong idea of how developing a game works. Gameplay concepts and technology have priority over matching every tiny detail in a 28 year old convoluted chronology. Kojima is more concerned with giving the player with each game a great experience, which includes great gameplay, interesting character and a new story. When it comes to the story, he writes that story around a theme. Genes in MGS1, Memes in MGS2, Environment/Times ("Scenes") in MGS3, etc. And he builds every aspect of his games around that theme. Remember how in MGS3 you suddenly hat to interact with your enviroment more? That was no accident. In addition to that, video games have a pretty problematic issue: they age really fast! At the speed at which technology evolves, you have to constantly reinvent yourself, to keep gameplay fresh and relevant and maintain the standard. And nothing shows that better than MGSV itself. In 2013 everything this game does would have been top notch. On a technical side it would have been near perfect, but two additional years evelopment time and upon release in 2015 and now 2016 some aspects already seem dated, especially texture quality and facial animations (even though they are still pretty damn good imo). Add to that the obviously terrible working environment at Konami the past couple of years and Kojima's conflict of interet of both wanting to continue the series for business reasons and wanting to finish the series and make onceptually interesting games for artistic and creative reasons and there you have your answer about Kojima thinking straight. So, once again, give the guy a break. Hopefully, now that he is free from both Konami and Metal Gear, something really interesting will come up nex. The Amazing Adventures of Ludence? ^^
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on May 26, 2016 17:01:01 GMT -5
Well, I always assumed Zero knew Big Boss ran Outer Heaven. Hence why he sends Solid Snake - his insurance policy - to FOXHOUND. I generally concluded he let Big Boss return to FOXHOUND while at the same time being aware of what he was up to - then he send Snake to Big Boss's unit to set up a confrontation between them, hedging his bets that as his clone, Snake would bring down Big Boss and Outer Heaven. Not that its confimed one way or the other anyway. I was on the MGS wiki and found this article: War between BB and Zero. "In 1970, Zero founded the Patriots, whose aim was to carry on The Boss's will. However, over time, Zero became power hungry. He used Big Boss's fame as a way to gain influence. Big Boss grew to be resentful of Zero's twisted ways, and disliked being used for the latter's goals. Fearing Big Boss would leave the Patriots, Zero decided that he needed insurance against his former friend. Two years later, in 1972, Zero and Dr. Clark extracted Big Boss's DNA.[note 1] After dozens of faliures, EVA was used as a surrogate mother to create two clones, who were later given the codenames Solid Snake and Liquid Snake. A third clone, who would be called Solidus Snake, was created later. When Big Boss found out about the project, he left to form his own vision with Kazuhira Miller. The result was the creation of the PMC, Militaires Sans Frontières. Around this time, Zero, now having his organization go by the name Cipher, went into hiding and began plotting against Big Boss and MSF. In 1974, Zero had his agent Paz Ortega Andrade stage the Peace Walker Incident to create a situation in which they could use Big Boss's own creation, Metal Gear ZEKE, against him and MSF. This was done in order to blackmail him into rejoining Cipher, with the ultimatum being the destruction of MSF's reputation. While the plan failed, Zero was unconcerned, as he knew he could use the clones as weapons against Big Boss. One year later, a man known as Skull Face and his unit, XOF, captured Chico and Paz to use them as a distraction for Big Boss while XOF attacked Mother Base. Despite the fact that Big Boss and Miller escaped, the operation succeeded, as Mother Base and MSF were no more. Nine years after the destruction of MSF and Mother Base, Big Boss had awakened from his coma. During his coma, Skull Face had gone rogue and attacked Zero. Zero created a "phantom" of Big Boss by using Big Boss's best man, who had also fallen into a coma, by giving him plastic surgery and hypnotherapy. Shortly after "Venom Snake" woke up, XOF soldiers located him and attempted to kill him. With the assistance of Big Boss, under the codename Ishmael, and former rival Ocelot, Venom Snake managed to escape from the XOF soldiers that were sent to kill him. Sometime later, Venom Snake rescued Miller in Afghanistan. When they returned to their new base, Miller vowed that everything they did would be to combat Cipher out of revenge. The war had officially begun. During those nine years, Miller formed Diamond Dogs to combat Cipher. At some point, their comrade Huey Emmerich and a female sniper known as Quiet were tortured by Ocelot, who eventually learned that Cipher was pursuing new research in South Africa to find the missing link which would provide the materials necessary to create a weapon to surpass even Metal Gear. By 1995, Big Boss had officially created Outer Heaven and gave control of the country to Venom Snake while Big Boss himself returned to the United States. When the Outer Heaven Uprising was formulated, he kept his status as the leader of Outer Heaven a secret to use his control of FOXHOUND to feed misinformation to the United States government while he forced Dr. Madnar to create the TX-55 Metal Gear for use against the Patriots. The Patriots used Solid Snake to stop the uprising and destroy Metal Gear, though at the time, the latter was unaware of who he was truly working for. While Snake had succeeded in his mission, killed Venom Snake, and left Big Boss for dead, the latter had actually survived, and escaped with many of Outer Heaven's citizens. In late 1999, Big Boss became the President of Zanzibar Land, and with his most trusted lieutenant, Gray Fox, tried once again to fight the Patriots. This time, he did so by forming an army from various soldiers and war orphans from across the globe. By this point, Dr. Madnar was willing to create a more powerful version of TX-55, dubbed Metal Gear D. Snake was able to destroy Metal Gear D and gravely wound Gray Fox and Big Boss. He then left, believing that his work was done. The Patriots later scavenged through Zanzibar Land and recovered the bodies of Gray Fox and Big Boss. The Patriots gave Gray Fox to Dr. Clark, who then resurrected him through use of a top secret government project. Instead of killing Big Boss, the Patriots put him in a nanomachine-induced coma to remain the icon for the Patriots, and to be a prisoner of Zero's will. The Patriots, for the time being, had won the war. EVA and Ocelot, seeing how dangerous the Patriots had become, decided to form the unofficial anti-Patriot faction to kill the corrupted members of the Patriots. In 2003, EVA and Ocelot recruited Naomi Hunter, Gray Fox's adopted sister, into their organization and used her to help Gray Fox escape and kill Dr. Clark. During the Shadow Moses Incident in 2005, Ocelot, having infiltrated Liquid's group known as the Sons of Big Boss to get the Metal Gear REX dummy warhead data for George Sears, used his torture device to kill Donald Anderson, though he covered it up as an accident. After the deaths of Dr. Clark and Donald Anderson, the Patriot AIs Zero had commissioned in the '70s and '80s took completely over. Before the Guns of the Patriots Incident began, the AIs programmed a new strain of FOXDIE which would kill their enemies EVA, Ocelot, and Big Boss, should the latter ever wake up. They then gave it to Drebin 893 to inject into the unwitting Old Snake, who then went on to indirectly kill them. Nine years later, in 2014, Snake and Otacon did what Big Boss could not, and destroyed the AIs along with the Patriots. When Snake attempted to commit suicide due to the new strand of FOXDIE in his body, Big Boss appeared with a vegetative Zero, and explained the history of the Patriots, claiming that the organization would not truly die until Zero himself died. Big Boss then killed Zero, finally bringing a conclusive end to the Patriots. A few minutes later, Big Boss died from the new strain of FOXDIE, thus putting an end to the war between Big Boss and Zero for good." I beg to differ here. Kojima might have left Konami, but there will STILL be MGS games coming out. www.flickr.com/photos/131230194@N02/19114648066/in/dateposted-public/Sorry, but can't agree. MGS4 was the last game considered canon at least to me. MPW is essentially rendering the entire series meaningless.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 7, 2016 2:50:36 GMT -5
New Metal Gear games are actually still coming out! A Pachislot Machine! Yay! (*cough* irony *cough*)
I liked the Metal Gear games as Kojima games and aside from Rising (as a Platinum game) I didn't really enjoy the other non-Kojima games that much (never got around to play Ghost Babel, though. That's supposed to be amazing). So whatever Kojima will come up with next, this will be the true successor to MGSV for me. And I believe the reason why MGSV is such an unfinished mess, is in part because of Kojima'a ambition, in part because of Konami's tinkering.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 7, 2016 7:14:56 GMT -5
But here's my problem with MGS, just because more instalments are made doesn't mean the series is better. Perhaps the main flaw is making Big Boss games. Everyone is so concerned to see if the COULD do something that they don't stop to think if they SHOULD. An effective series is one that flows, with each game effectively supporting each other.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 7, 2016 11:41:07 GMT -5
I'm not talking about MGS. I'm talking about the next Hideo Kojima game. And yeah, making more isn't always better. I personally think, you should end a series on a high note. And MGS probably should have ended after 4. that being said, I still don't bash MGSPW and MGSV. They were good games imo and the letter was just way too ambitious and caught in the crossfire between Konami and Kojima from what can be seen now.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 7, 2016 18:18:46 GMT -5
Well, I guess Kojima's been swinging from one extreme to another in terms of games outside of the main series (MG1-MGS4). Personally, MPO's story was much MORE bearable than PW's. But on one hand, PO suffered in technical aspects, like gameplay. And yet on the other hand, PW was f...ckin' fun... I wish Kojima could redeem himself with a retcon-less plot in the next MGS game (and add that with a replay-value filled game), whatever the f...ck it is, or whenever the blazing hell it comes out.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 8, 2016 13:17:47 GMT -5
Well, at least on the technical inadequacy of MPO we can agree.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 8, 2016 18:39:22 GMT -5
So with you being a fan of the MPW story, am I to understand that you don't feel it damages MG1? The whole TX-55 being an ultimate weapon, the whole urgency of stopping in even though Big Boss was an even greater nucear power in 1974, the whole concept of Big Boss leading Fox-Hound to stop Outer Heaven plot twist... You think it all clicks?
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 9, 2016 1:11:36 GMT -5
No, of course it doesn't all click. You have valid points. Zeke is way to advanced for the era when compared to Tx-55. However, I just don't mind it as much as you guys. I think continuity discrepancies are bound to happen if a game series runs as long and is as complex in storyline as MGS.
That being said, I just thought MPW had a more interesting story to tell. It actually showed Big Boss' development from being unsure what to think of THe Boss sacrificing her life and her honor for a pretty dishonorable government to eventually outright rejecting her and her pacifist ideals and becoming a warmonger in essence - something she wouldn't have wanted, but also something that is his own ideal (and not copied and refined from Gene in MPO).
It bridged a gap for me that MGS4 left. MGS4 made it seem as though Big Boss was rebelling against Zero and Outer Heaven being his own interpretation of THe Boss' will. However, in MG2 that clearly wasn't the case. He was a pretty cynical warmonger there and far removed from anything The Boss said or did. MPW gives us the reason: his interpretation of The Boss' will lead him to outright reject her. Eventually in MGS4 he remorsefully admits that she was right in the end. So to me, MPW fixed more than it broke. It fixed the important stuff: character consistency. Plus I just dug the overall positive nature of the game and actually really cared about these character (except for Cecile - yawn). And it made MGSV pretty hard hitting for me - even though it was a mess of a game - seeing how all these characters and their dreams got destroyed. Huey's development in particular was so shameful. Seeing what a good natured kid he seemed to be in MPW and what a back-stabbing coward he became.
That is another example of how I see it: Sure, in principle, Huey's inclusion was unnecessary and somewhat weird, but what they ended up doing with him genuinely moved me. So for me, it was a fair trade-off. And that is why I don't mind continuity issues if it means I get a great story and/or some bigger continuity issues get fixed because of that.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 9, 2016 2:09:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I agree with that. Sorry, but MGS4 came first and is not going to be leaving the canon any time soon. Peace Walker came AFTER and now contradicts this.
You must remember the truth is, Big Boss strived for a world where he would not see the fate his mentor had to endure. He was tring to make the world as he saw best. Same as she wanted to do it the way she saw it best. Same with Zero. They all wanted to make the world as they saw it. Both Zero and Big Boss were inspired by her to take action on a big scale, but they went in different directions to do so. Peace Walker does nothing to help explain anything. Matter fof fact, the Peace Walker ending contradicts MGS3 and MGS4. In MGS4 Big Boss is still not over his actions in MGS3. In Peace Walker he is. That's BS, since (like it or not) MGS4 is the conclusion to the SAGA.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 9, 2016 7:47:09 GMT -5
In MG2 (way before MGS4 came out), this was his reasoning. Big Boss has come to think of war and conflict as a natural state that has an intrinsic value to it, whereas The Boss, Solid Snake (and any normal human being really) consider war as something that has to be done at best, but in the end only causes pain and waste of life. This is why Solid Snake was so bitter in MGS1 and MGS4, because he saw himself as just another worthless killer, whereas in MGS2 he had (briefly) found an ideal to live for: exposing (not destroying) Metal Gears (e.g. non-violently). This is why Outer Heaven existed in the first place, to propagate war, because Big Boss thaught of war itself as something "good". Then along came MGS4 with all that stuff about interpreting The Boss' will and Outer Heaven being the realisation of Big Boss' interpretation of her will. How do you end up twisting the clearly pacifistic ideals of The Boss into wanting to plunge the world into a constant state of war? The Answer is in MPW: Big Boss understood The Boss perfectly, but rejected her for it. He actually wanted to have a different world than The Boss and thought she was wrong and started to resent her for that... and only at the end of MGS4 did he realise the error in his ways and agrees that she was right all along to "let the world be".
MGS4 was here first? MG2 was there even earlier and MGS4 outright contradicted MG2. And then along came MPW and actually fixed it. So, like it or not, Peace Walker's ending actually enhances the ending of MGS3 and MGS4.
As an aside: Venom Snake actually was much more like The Boss: he was calm, pacifistic, wanted to avoid unneccessary bloodshed, arbitrated conflicts among his men. This is why he comes across as so silent and bland, because - even with Big Boss' memories - he is a very different person. And I think the revelation at the end of Mission 46 to him is, what will push Venom Snake over the edge. I think the Outer Heaven uprising might actually be an uprising by Venom Snake against Big Boss. But it is purposefully shrouded in mystery and wasn't explained in order to underline the tragedy of Venom Snake: He was misused by Big Boss and ultimately his existence was completely erased, swallowed by the legend of Big Boss: we never know who he was before that helicopter crash and we don't even know, how his story truly ended.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 9, 2016 8:07:30 GMT -5
Now I'm not here to start flames wars or offend you or anything, but like you and I both said before, it's a discussion board and I don't happen to share your views. So...
But in MGS1, BB wanted to create a place where there will always be room for soldiers, where they would not be discarded as the Boss did. You should replay that game.
I apologise profusely for this, but you misunderstood MGS3. Outer Heaven was NEVER hinted at to be Big Boss' interpretation of The Boss' will. Outer Heave was his means to oppose Zero's control. The fact that you only focus on Big Boss and The Boss, leaving Zero out, is the reason why your perception of the plot is a bit off.
However much I'd like to I cannot provide a solid and concrete counter argument to your points since I, needless to repeat, simply have not played the entire series. I'd only like to for argument's sake though (NOT because I disagree with you!) but because this is a forum for discussing.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 10, 2016 8:33:47 GMT -5
That's fine. Don't worry.
Now, I'm guessing you actually mean MG1, since in MGS1, Big Boss is dead (well, kind of). You should play Metal Gear 1 from 1987 (if you haven't already). Now in that game no explanation is ever given as to why Outer Heaven existed. Actually, there isn't really a story or any characterizations, just a plot that gives context to what you are doing in the game. An actual explanation is only given in MG2 and the gist ist in the quote I gave you in my previous post. MGS3 than expanded on that with what you said. And then MGS4 and then MPW. But I'll not repeat myself here.
Well, actually both are right. In MGS4 they at times say that Outer Heaven was coup d'etat against Zero and that Big Boss also misinterpreted The Boss' will (strongly hinting at Outer Heaven being an attempted realization of The Boss' will. In any case, my point is, that an earlier game established one thing (Big Boss as a maniac, who sees intrinsic value in war and is willing to use anyone) while a later game established something else (the seemingly noble cause of opposing Zero and creating a world, that The Boss would have approved of), which clearly contradicts the earlier game. In the later version Big Boss seems noble, in the earlier more like a maniac. My point is, that MPW and MGSV connects the dods here and reestablishes the earlier portrayal; in other words, restores continuity.
Again, it's okay. It's a complicated series. I have played all the games multiple times (except MGSV, that one only once) and have known them since 1999 and I still discover new details, that I didn't spot earlier.
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