Additional Notes against the Expanded Universe

[A.G.]

As you know, I consider MPO, MPW and MGSV as Expanded Universe. Nothing in those games is actually needed to complete the Metal Gear Saga. And we’ve discussed may times the damage these games actually do to the overall story. But as I’ve been replaying the games I did notice a few more items that really don’t allow these games to comfortably fit into the overall story. Really, it’s certain characters. They are vital to their respective games, but they also prevent them from being canon.

MPO Gray Fox - this is a big one. You simply can’t ignore the info given in MG2 dialogue with Fox. In MG2 Gray Fox states that Big Boss saves him twice before he joined his unit. First time was in Vietnam and the second when he was tortured in Mozambique. In MPO Big Boss merely recalls a child soldier from Mozambique. Nothing is said of Vietnam or that he rescued him. The age doesn’t fit as well since in MG2 Fox was talking about his rescue taking place after the Vietnam War when half whites were discriminated against. MPO is set in 1970 and the child story was stated as being 4 years ago, so 1966. And naturally the whole Null super soldier doesn’t fit with MG2. Gray Fox is a major part of both MG2 and MPO. The two stories of his background simply don’t fit together at all. This isn’t a simple retcon in a manual. This is actual dialogue from the games. More than anything, this stamps out MPO.

MPW Huey - so we know that Huey was born in 1945. In MPW he states how well he knows Granin. In 1964 we see a picture of them in Granin’s office. Even if the photo was taken earlier that year, which it certainly wasn’t, that would make Huey 19 years old. The man in the photo is much older and is clearly standing. The whole wheelchair bit and friendship with Granin was added in MPW. This photo certainly contradicts this as it is clearly his Hal’s grandfather. It’s not a huge piece, but I definitely see Huey as a big mistake for the overall canon, even more so in MGSV. And since MGSV and MPW are so closely connected, if one doesn’t fit, they both don’t fit into the overall saga.

MGSV Hal - Hal was to pilot Metal Gear. That’s stated on screen. That’s what caused the issues with Huey and Strangelove. So how is it that Hal recalls his grandfather working on the Manhattan project but nothing at all about his father’s work? Huey was all about Metal Gear! From the AI machines to Sahelanthropus. Yes, Hal was very young. But I find it hard to believe that he learned nothing about his father and all the previous mecha in the series. Once again, Huey is a major retcon for the series and prevents the games he is in from fitting into the story.

MGSV Venom - ah the big twist... Snake actually fought Venom in Outer Heaven instead of Big Boss. But not according to MGS4. In that game Big Boss clearly states that Snake erased him twice before, referencing Outer Heaven and Zanzibar. Now I know, the counter argument is that Venom was posing as Big Boss for official records. But if that was the case, Big Boss would say so. He had no issues saying that the body burnt by Liquid on the Volta was a clone. Why would he still pretend that the Outer Heaven battle didn’t happen? He wouldn’t. He was dying and was revealing everything.


Now I know, these games came out later and added these new elements that weren’t covered in the original story. But at the end of the day, if you play them chronologically, the story does not work. So regardless of the gameplay that some may like, the story is far more crucial in this situation.

[Cerberus_0408]

I kinda agree with your woes. Especially the one about Venom...I guess since MGS4 was made first, THAT should be official. MGS5 should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I maintain my view that MGS5, PW, PO and the sh*t like that is purely made FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES. I know they should technically fit into the storyline. But those are more for GAMEPLAY than anything else. They don't even DESERVE to be considered canon. But whether or not they're TRULY canon is something we can bitch and moan for AGES about.

[A.G.]

Well, it’s a dead series now so nothing can officially change. Still, fun to evaluate from time to time.

On a related note, playing Ground Zeroes a bit. Very much agree that post-MGS4 were more gameplay-focused and the story was shoehorned in.

[Cerberus_0408]

Sometimes i can't help but wonder why the hell Kojima chose to make those games. And the story...did he ACTUALLY plan to make it the way it was? Or did some last-minute changes occur to cause it to appear the way that it is presented??

[A.G.]

I think it’s the main issue is being involved with it for such a long time. Almost 30 years! During that time your ideas and views change. Things that he valued at one point changed into something else. There are 11 years between MG and MGS. Yet if you play them, they feel like they belong together. MGS felt like a natural evolution of the first game. Now compare MGS with MPW. 12 years apart. The games feel nothing alike. Not the structure, not the design, not the presentation. It was something else completely.

[fgdj2000]

Dec 30, 2018 12:37:55 GMT -5 A.G. said:

As you know, I consider MPO, MPW and MGSV as Expanded Universe. Nothing in those games is actually needed to complete the Metal Gear Saga. And we’ve discussed may times the damage these games actually do to the overall story.

First off, let me concede that, yes, those games tend to convolute things more than clarify them for the overall saga. However, I do think they provided some decent additions, most notably how Zero's turn as described in MGS4 felt really out of character and was made much more believable from what we hear in MGSV.

MPO Gray Fox - this is a big one. You simply can’t ignore the info given in MG2 dialogue with Fox. In MG2 Gray Fox states that Big Boss saves him twice before he joined his unit. First time was in Vietnam and the second when he was tortured in Mozambique. In MPO Big Boss merely recalls a child soldier from Mozambique. Nothing is said of Vietnam or that he rescued him. The age doesn’t fit as well since in MG2 Fox was talking about his rescue taking place after the Vietnam War when half whites were discriminated against. MPO is set in 1970 and the child story was stated as being 4 years ago, so 1966. And naturally the whole Null super soldier doesn’t fit with MG2. Gray Fox is a major part of both MG2 and MPO. The two stories of his background simply don’t fit together at all. This isn’t a simple retcon in a manual. This is actual dialogue from the games. More than anything, this stamps out MPO.

Since I don't really root for this game and don't fully consider it canon, I have no argument here. In fact, did we really need Frank Jaeger to be a Ninja before he became a Cyborg Ninja?

MPW Huey - so we know that Huey was born in 1945. In MPW he states how well he knows Granin. In 1964 we see a picture of them in Granin’s office. Even if the photo was taken earlier that year, which it certainly wasn’t, that would make Huey 19 years old. The man in the photo is much older and is clearly standing. The whole wheelchair bit and friendship with Granin was added in MPW. This photo certainly contradicts this as it is clearly his Hal’s grandfather. It’s not a huge piece, but I definitely see Huey as a big mistake for the overall canon, even more so in MGSV. And since MGSV and MPW are so closely connected, if one doesn’t fit, they both don’t fit into the overall saga.

I've mixed feelings about that one. First, I agree that Granin's friend in the US was clearly meant to be Otacon's grandfather. However, I think it isn't that far fetched that a then-19 year old Huey, certainly brilliant at this age, did also know of Granin and possible converse with him via mail. If his father was familiar with him, why can't Huey also be? Maybe there was a friendship between the families. As for Huey himself, on the one hand, I think it's a bit too convenient that Solid Snake and Otacon are friends and have adventures and it turns out, their Dads did the same thing too. However, I like what they did with Huey in MGSV. Everyone though of him as Otacon 2.0, but he turned out to be a far more sinister and awful human being. At the same time, he is also the only one who shows just how hypocritical Venom Snake and Diamond Dogs really are and seems to be the only one to know what's really going on. I think in GZ he has a point, MSF or DD should be able to be held accountable to the public in some form and it was a huge issue that they aren't.

MGSV Hal - Hal was to pilot Metal Gear. That’s stated on screen. That’s what caused the issues with Huey and Strangelove. So how is it that Hal recalls his grandfather working on the Manhattan project but nothing at all about his father’s work? Huey was all about Metal Gear! From the AI machines to Sahelanthropus. Yes, Hal was very young. But I find it hard to believe that he learned nothing about his father and all the previous mecha in the series. Once again, Huey is a major retcon for the series and prevents the games he is in from fitting into the story.

I honestly have no issue with Hal not remembering any of it. He was just an infant and if he knew anything of what's going on, it was probably very traumatic and he suppressed all of it. I also don't think Huey would one day sit down with him to have the talk "Hey, son, I want to tell you how I wanted to selfishly use you for my research and then killed your mom when she wouldn't allow it."

MGSV Venom - ah the big twist... Snake actually fought Venom in Outer Heaven instead of Big Boss. But not according to MGS4. In that game Big Boss clearly states that Snake erased him twice before, referencing Outer Heaven and Zanzibar. Now I know, the counter argument is that Venom was posing as Big Boss for official records. But if that was the case, Big Boss would say so. He had no issues saying that the body burnt by Liquid on the Volta was a clone. Why would he still pretend that the Outer Heaven battle didn’t happen? He wouldn’t. He was dying and was revealing everything.

Well, the reason he doesn't mention it, is, as you said later, it just hadn't been established, yet. It's a retcon. If you need to make it explicit within the story, why would Big Boss take the extra time to tell this, which would raise a lot of questions that arguably didn't matter anymore, especially, since he knows he is very short on time thanks to FoxDie. As for the existence of Venom Snake in the canon, I guess this is a matter for fans to decide for themselves.

Now I know, these games came out later and added these new elements that weren’t covered in the original story. But at the end of the day, if you play them chronologically, the story does not work. So regardless of the gameplay that some may like, the story is far more crucial in this situation.

I guess this lies in the eye of the beholder. MPW and MGSV somehow resonated with me. I love the optimism with which Motherbase is build in MPW and how it all gets twisted and comes crashing down and how by the time MGSV ends everything has just become hollow, an endless state of war and missions. I think, this was clearly intentional. Solid Snake's journey was about leaving the battlefield and finding meaning in life. Big Boss and Venom Snakle's journeys are the opposite: getting trapped on the battlefield and loosing all sense for life outside of it. It's a more depressing story, but it resonated with me, maybe in some ways even more than the other games. That to me excuses the advanced technologies depicted in both games, the many retcons that further convolute and already convoluted fictional history. But that's just me and I can understand, if other fans don't like that. Hell, I readily admit to the games' flaws, that MGSV has lots of pacing issues and that boss fights in both games are with few exceptions, nowhere near as interesting or memorable as they were in the older games.

But I digress. One last thing on what you said: I don't think these games should be played chronologically and never did. Even MGS3 expects you to be familiar with the previous games. Raikov makes no sense in chronological order, but in release/production order, you get that he is a parody of Raiden. And accordingly, MGSV expects you to know what happens in MGS4. It's a little bit like The Godfather Part II, where the young Vito Corleone sequences are not meant to be seen before The Godfather Part I and are interesting precisely because you know the outcome of events and how they are juxtaposed with the Michael Corleone events in the film.

Anyway, have a nice day.

[A.G.]

I think you basically defined the reason people view the series so differently. It all boils down to what resonated the most with the individual. I spent 1999 and 2000 buried in MGS1 and the two MSX games. They are absolutely the definition of the series in my eyes. Anything that downplays their importance simply doesn’t connect with me. I’m sure you told me, but when did you get into the series? If it was later in the series run, I can completely see where MPW and MGS5 have more meaning to you.

For me, the story worked much better up to MGS4. Even the Zero turn you mentioned. I actually didn’t like that part in MGS5. The Zero backstory presented in MGS4 worked better in my opinion. I also disagree on not playing the games chronologically. If you go from MGS3 to MG1 the story flows beautifully. Raikov is not an important character so that’s not much of a reason not to do it. But again, if you leave MPW and MGS5 out, then you can play the series chronologically or by release date and it all works.

I always like to reference Star Wars when talking about Metal Gear. There are a lot of similarities. The truth is, the prequel saga added nothing of value to the series. Just contradictions and explanations that weren’t needed. Did we really need a look at how Vader became Vader? What did that add? We learned that he is actually a whiny bitch. Same thing with Big Boss. We didn’t need explanations. He was a mythical figure that should’ve been left alone. MGS3 is an exception to the rule as it went far enough back and actually told the right story.

I should also point out that neither MPW nor MGS5 have a legacy. Even MGS4 with its flaws is still remembered as that big game on the PS3. MPW and MGS5 came and went as if they didn’t happen at all.

[fgdj2000]

Actually, I‘ve been a fan as long as you. I bought my copy of MGS1 back in 1999 when it released in Germany (with the at times really funny German dub, including Liquid Snake sounding like Kermit the Frog and Ocelot, Donald Anderson, Jim Houseman all being voiced by the same actor...)
I didn’t play the MSX games though, but I spent a better part of my childhood in front of MGS1-3 Back when each one released. So, I’m pretty old school. And I agree MGS4 was the great epic conclusion, even when I now see just how painfully cheesy it is at times. I even finally played through the MSX games back in 2008 (after finishing MGS4) and think MG2 especially is a great game. And I‘m also very annoyed at people saying „Metal Gear 2“ and meaning „Metal Gear Solid 2“. Lazy pseudo-fans, it’s just one two-syllable word more and it’s an important distinction!

I was perfectly happy with the series ending at MGS4. However when MPW released It kind of felt to me like playing MGS1 for the first time. Mostly, because it was a self-contained story that build on top what was already there, but (as I said) still felt fairly stand-alone. Also, after my disappointment with Portable Ops, it was great seeing a game that actually showed Big Blds‘ transformation from disillusioned Idealist to war-mongering mercanery. Also, the gameplay was so addicting, „collecting“ soldiers, building your army, improving your gear. I think it was just a great loop, which also worked great in MGSV. To me, it feels like MG1-MGS4 is someone else’s story, while MPW (and later MGSV) is my own personalized story within that framework.

Needless to say, I was particularly disappointed with some aspects in MGSV. The missions really started to drag after about 10-15 hours, since once you find your optimal strategy, there is rarely an incentive to change it. Some of the dialog was just wooden at beast, immersion breaking at worst and the Jeep ride was just... the most awkward thing I had to sit through. But I still love the game, the story it’s trying to tell, and the freedom it gives you especially when compared to other stealth games.

So, despite being an old school fan and being pretty happy with how the series wrapped up in MGS4, I still adored the two more recent games.

On chronological vs. release order: When playing through the series, I love seeing not just how the characters in the story evolve, but also how stuff like the mechanics evolve, how the graphics get more realistic, and I think it is just abgerät experience, seeing Big Boss as a villain first and then going back in time to see him as a hero who is even more likable at first than Solid Snake, which is punctuated by our own knowledge of who he‘s going to turn into. Raining was just one minor example, there are many little things like that in MGS3, like how Naked Snake is only used to urban environments, which is a reference to the players themselves only having seen urban environments in MG1-MGS2, etc. I also love how the story itself evolves: First it’s a series of Spy adventures about stopping Metal Gears, then around MGS2 and 3 it transforms into this epic saga about secret societies controlling the world and different people‘s attempts to stop that or their involvement with said societies... until in MGSPW and MGSV the whole thing turns into the big tragedy of Big Boss and his sons. I love seeing stories evolve like that. Like an anthology novel series where your view of the world changes with each installment.

But as you say, that’s just my view and my opinion. I can understand yours as well.

But, as you say to each his own.

[A.G.]

I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube lately and seeing many different perspectives on the series. It actually speaks to the genius of the series to allow that much flexibility for interpretation. Most of it does seem to focus on the Big Boss era though. And I think the reason is because Kojima kept changing who Big Boss was as the series went on. And depending on how and when people got into the series their perception of that character varies.

Like most, I played MGS1 first. In that game Big Boss was a legend. And seeing the impact he made on Wolf, Naomi, Fox and of course Snake, it was clear to me that he was NOT a villain. That was further cemented for me when I played MG1 and MG2 a year later. Sure, he turned out to be the villain in MG1 but all of that was clarified well in MG2. Especially when Schneider, who opposed Outer Heaven, explained what NATO did and how Big Boss saved everyone, including the children. Between the first three games it was clear to me that Big Boss was presented as a hero to the other side, the side that our protagonist wasn’t on. And that was fascinating.

Then came MGS3 and we finally saw WHY! The ending was flawless, showing a loyal soldier torn between his duty and his feelings. Which will he follow?! All of that tied very well into MG1 where he turns against the side you, as the player, represent. When you look at MGS3, MG1 and MG2 you see and incredible character arc. A young hero questions his legendary status and decides to follow his own calling, breaking away from the side the player represents. In MGS3 you and him are one. In MG1 you work together. In MG2 he opposes you. Brilliant! That’s what makes me like that flow so much. And all of that complimented well by MGS4 where you see him realize his mistakes.

Where I felt disconnected from MPW was the story didn’t really explain what I felt was needed. What I needed. Being set between other games I thought it had the obligation to tell the right story. The departure from Zero was barely mentioned. And I felt that story was needed far more than the new story they added. MPW didn’t do much outside of what MGS3 already set up. We didn’t need the AI Boss to reconfirm what we already knew. Seemed redundant and needlessly over the top. Because of all that the story didn’t do anything for me. As such I prefer to have nothing, over what was given in MPW. MGS5... well... that wasn’t even Big Boss. Poor time to add a new character who has no personality. Besides, I absolutely refuse to accept that it’s Venom in MG1. No version of that makes any sense at all. Venom was made into Big Boss so that Big Boss could operate in secret while all eyes were on Venom. So what could possibly be the logic to have him be in Outer Heaven? The very place under investigation. A FAR better idea was to put in an unknown in charge so that Big Boss’ cover would remain in tact. But that’s a whole other topic for another day.

[fgdj2000]

Jun 3, 2019 22:54:17 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Where I felt disconnected from MPW was the story didn’t really explain what I felt was needed. What I needed. Being set between other games I thought it had the obligation to tell the right story. The departure from Zero was barely mentioned. And I felt that story was needed far more than the new story they added. MPW didn’t do much outside of what MGS3 already set up. We didn’t need the AI Boss to reconfirm what we already knew. Seemed redundant and needlessly over the top. Because of all that the story didn’t do anything for me. As such I prefer to have nothing, over what was given in MPW. MGS5... well... that wasn’t even Big Boss. Poor time to add a new character who has no personality. Besides, I absolutely refuse to accept that it’s Venom in MG1. No version of that makes any sense at all. Venom was made into Big Boss so that Big Boss could operate in secret while all eyes were on Venom. So what could possibly be the logic to have him be in Outer Heaven? The very place under investigation. A FAR better idea was to put in an unknown in charge so that Big Boss’ cover would remain in tact. But that’s a whole other topic for another day.

I think, you misunderstood MPW. The point of the story was, that after MGS3, Big Boss didn't know WHAT to think of the sacrifice The Boss made and how she let herself be used like that. And after the whole Peace Walker shebang, he basically interprets her decision as betrayal for everything he believed in, which is why he completely rejects her beliefs and ideals and goes "nuclear" and builds his "ends justify the means" approach. In the beginning of the game, he clearly doesn't know what he even wants to do with his MSF. He wants to create a place where they are needed and not used, yet he also doesn't want them to be mercenaries and is reluctant when Galvez' mission puts him against his own former country. By the end of the game however, they have become a nuclear power, they "go where they are needed" and will be "revolutionaries, terrorrists" and may "all go straight to hell". That's quite a radical change in approach. He now wants them to mercenaries and doesn't really care what they do, as long as they stay in charge.

And that evolution gets punctuated in MGSV, when he is willing to hide the fact that they are a nuclear power, at first, and then steals the identity of his best soldier and uses him to be basically a huge distraction. At that point, Big Boss himself believes to an extend in the cult of his personality, that he is willing to use his soldiers to save his own ass.

I admit, it's not the most straightforward way to do it, and the super advanced technology in Peace Walker (Sahelantrhopus at least didn't work on its own and needed help from a psychic) give you continuity- headaches, but on the flip side, it gave us something unexpected and surprising.

I think the main problem was, that Kojima himself was done with the series, but for some reason wasn't able to properly move on, whether he just couldn't let go, or whether he wasn't allowed, we'll probably never really know anytime soon.

[A.G.]

Oh I got all that from MPW, I just didn’t agree with it. It’s not the story that should’ve been told. That’s where I fundamentally disagree with the notion of in between titles. If you are going to do it then you should tell the story that’s needed. Not come up with new things that work against established games. Everything we needed to know about Big Boss’ mindset was done with MGS3. The payoff was in MG1. The entire story of Big Boss’ rise to legend in MPW and MGS5 doesn’t work well with the story painted in MG2 and MGS1. In those games Big Boss wasn’t just the head of a PMC, which is all they made him in the missing link games. His impact on people’s lives isn’t really shown that much. And what they show isn’t that great. In the original games Big Boss was a visionary. His trauma from MGS3 led him to build a world of perpetual war a way of channeling the violent human nature and making sure soldiers are always needed. In MPW he just ends up being a gun for hire without any ideologies.

C’mon, a rehash of The Boss trauma with an AI wasn’t needed. Showing his conflict with Zero, his outlook on the clones, traveling the world and showing those legend stories that Fox, Naomi and Wolf mentioned... that what we needed. It wasn’t the right place to go for something new.

I’m sorry, but MPW and MGS5 didn’t do Big Boss justice. I see them being like the prequel saga of Star Wars, telling the story of Vader that didn’t help the character in the big picture.

[fgdj2000]

Jun 11, 2019 1:55:06 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Oh I got all that from MPW, I just didn’t agree with it. It’s not the story that should’ve been told. That’s where I fundamentally disagree with the notion of in between titles. If you are going to do it then you should tell the story that’s needed. Not come up with new things that work against established games. Everything we needed to know about Big Boss’ mindset was done with MGS3. The payoff was in MG1. The entire story of Big Boss’ rise to legend in MPW and MGS5 doesn’t work well with the story painted in MG2 and MGS1. In those games Big Boss wasn’t just the head of a PMC, which is all they made him in the missing link games. His impact on people’s lives isn’t really shown that much. And what they show isn’t that great. In the original games Big Boss was a visionary. His trauma from MGS3 led him to build a world of perpetual war a way of channeling the violent human nature and making sure soldiers are always needed. In MPW he just ends up being a gun for hire without any ideologies.

Alright, I see your point. While I did enjoy what we got, I admit, it would have been more interesting to see the great Big Boss at work, building Outer Heaven, influencing people with his charisma etc. In fact, that is what I was hoping for in MGSV. I thought, he would eventually snap and part of his men (lead by Miller) would revolt against him and he would brutally take them down, maybe even team up with Skull Face. Which is what the trailers kind of suggested. I also think Venom's story is appealing and the idea that you discover you have been used the whole time, is a great Kojima moment. But it is also a copout. Out of telling the story we really wanted. It's like doing Episode III from the perspective of some unknown Jedi at the outer rim and not seeing anything about Anakin turning into Vader at all.

Then again, I think the Venom Snake story worked for me, because it's a game and it kind of creates your own microcosm within the Metal Gear universe where you are free to tell your own story. But, I admit, it is also a copout.

C’mon, a rehash of The Boss trauma with an AI wasn’t needed. Showing his conflict with Zero, his outlook on the clones, traveling the world and showing those legend stories that Fox, Naomi and Wolf mentioned... that what we needed. It wasn’t the right place to go for something new.

Yeah, it didn't really feel like a rehash to me. I actually liked the game as a stepping stone for telling the origin of the real Outer Heaven. Maybe have it start out as this really optimistic PMC ("we are a business"), then in a follow up game become something far more sinister and cult like. As I said before, I think it kind of fixed an issue I had with MGS4, where it seemed like Outer Heaven was Big Boss' attempt to take down Zero's "evil" Patriots. Also, it made it pretty plain, that Outer Heaven was Big Boss' interpretation of The Boss' will, which was so far removed from anything she said, that I just couldn't quite buy it. I thought that was a huge contradiction with what has been depicted before. MPW made it so, that Big Boss actually rejects The Boss, which I thought was really interesting, and also made it less his attempt to rebel against Zero. Personally, as satisfying as it was to watch how MGS4 tied everything together, it also made the MG Universe feel small and convenient, because everything seemed now neatly connected in a grand master plan instead of being a chaotic history with all sorts of parties doing their thing. And to me MPW (and also MGSV) restored part of the feeling that it was a messy chaotic history. But, as I said, I see your point. Maybe it would have been better to actually see the fallout between Zero and Big Boss and the creation of Solid and Liquid at this point.

But then again, did we really need to see that? If this story had been told too much by the numbers, it would have been boring and felt empty, if it had gone a bit too much of the rails, it would have contradicted the previous games and felt out of place, with Metal Gear fans up in arms against it. Also, what would have been the gameplay? Could you tell that story while also presenting a compelling sneaking mission?

I’m sorry, but MPW and MGS5 didn’t do Big Boss justice. I see them being like the prequel saga of Star Wars, telling the story of Vader that didn’t help the character in the big picture.

Ah, come on, now you're just being mean. Haven't the prequels taken enough beatings for all their faults? xD


ONE LAST THING:

I think it would have been really interesting, if MGSV had told its story through the eyes of a child soldier. It could have presented Big Boss as a nurturing father and have you go on missions with him, your squad as your family. And eventually, your character wakes to the true horror of Big Boss' deranged mind. 
Also, don't call it MGS5, but something else, which you associate with Metal Gear. Maybe "Outer Heaven", "Zanzibar Heaven", "Before Nanomachines". I dunno. 
This wouldn't have been released in any public way, of course, especially with Kojima's talent at writing dialogue. 

[A.G.]

Personally I never saw Outer Heaven or Zanzibar as a cult or as evil. Which is why MPW and MGS5 didn’t seem to fit conceptually. Even before the story that was added in MGS3, Outer Heaven and Zanzibar made sense to me. He was a soldier. He saw that war was inevitable. He also understood that for many it’s inescapable. Gray Fox was a great example. He didn’t build them to be a private military company for higher. It was how he saw the world. MGS3 added to that by showing what set him on that path. Seeing MSF and Diamond Dogs didn’t feel like a logical connection to Outer Heaven. Nothing about that ideology reflected what was in the MSX games, which to me seemed like a better explanation.

As for the Zero part, I just don’t get the appeal of the MGS5 tapes. It’s not a coherent path to MGS4. Zero and Big Boss were on the same side. Then a difference in ideology split them up. Big Boss left to peruse his own goals. But in that time Zero and his Patriots became too powerful. Hence Big Boss came back to run Foxhound as his cover while completing Outer Heaven as opposition to Zero’s spreading control. Very logical. But you throw MPW in the mix and he sent Paz to kill him with a Metal Gear and to frame him for a nuclear launch. Then MGS5 he took care of him? C’mon. Crazy town. A lot of flip flopping. Really kills the flow of the story. It also doesn’t fit with the ending of MGS4. If Zero was brain damaged since the early 80s, then the whole AI project wasn’t his and taking him “back to zero” is meaningless.

I posted this before, but I would’ve preferred MGS5 to be a 5 Act game, each act taking place at different time. I still don’t think we needed this, but if they had to make an in-between game, this is what I would want:

Act 1 - early 70’s. If Boss and Zero working together as the Patriots. Small mission to start where Big Boss gets injured and falls into a coma. Then wakes in 1972 and maybe we play out a similar style hospital escape scenario. Ends with the reveal of the twins.

Act 2 - late 70’s. Showing flashbacks of Big Boss leaving The Patriots. Dealing with trauma and finding his way. Starting to build his legend and gaining support from soldiers. Maybe a mercenary mission where he saves many and it’s revealed how big he is getting.

Act 3 - early 80’s. Big Boss merc mission where he saves Gray Fox. Starts plans for Outer Heaven.

Act 4 - late 80’s. Outer Heaven in development. Big Boss rescues Wolf. Ends with him taking Fox and Naomi to America.

Act 5 - 1995. Playing as Gray Fox to infiltrate Outer Heaven. Ends with Fox getting captured and Solid Snake walking in to receive his orders from Big Boss.

[fgdj2000]

EDIT: this post got a little out of hand, but I think I figured the main issue with MGSV, and why I think it tells a compelling story, but also why I think you are right in saying, this story shouldn't really be in a Metal Gear game. So, bear with me.

Jun 11, 2019 22:51:09 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Personally I never saw Outer Heaven or Zanzibar as a cult or as evil. Which is why MPW and MGS5 didn’t seem to fit conceptually. Even before the story that was added in MGS3, Outer Heaven and Zanzibar made sense to me. He was a soldier. He saw that war was inevitable. He also understood that for many it’s inescapable. Gray Fox was a great example.

I think we had this discussion before, but Outer Heaven was never depicted as something desirable in the series. Sure, people can be sh*t, but Metal Gear always was about doing the right thing and finding hope in life despite of that. That Big Boss had an actual ideology that made sense and was also capable of kindness and even saving people out of hellholes just added depth to him. I always liked that about Metal Gear, the villains are often three-dimensional, but that doesn't fully excuse their actions or even makes them right. And come on, Outer Heaven and Zanzibar were kind of a cult build around Big Boss. This is very apparent in MG2, where you see kids talk nice about Big Boss and many of the people who worked against him in MG1 (Schneider, Gray Fox, Madnar) are now on his side and perceived him as their hero/ savior, but from his speech at the end of MG2, he is really just using them to fuel his own warped ideology. And usually, cults are build around people or Messiah with a warped ideology, who are charismatic enough to "infect" other people with their ideas. And if Big Boss is anything, it's charismatic.

He didn’t build them to be a private military company for higher. It was how he saw the world. MGS3 added to that by showing what set him on that path. Seeing MSF and Diamond Dogs didn’t feel like a logical connection to Outer Heaven. Nothing about that ideology reflected what was in the MSX games, which to me seemed like a better explanation.

That was added, that's true, but I don't think it directly contradicts what was depicted in the earlier games. Part of the problem is, again, that MGSV kind of copped out of actually telling us how a PMC became a cult/ country/ Mekka for soldiers/ whatever you want to call it. However, it was stated numerous times in the earlier games that most of the people working in Outer Heaven were Mercenaries. So, it's not far fetched.

As for the Zero part, I just don’t get the appeal of the MGS5 tapes. It’s not a coherent path to MGS4. Zero and Big Boss were on the same side. Then a difference in ideology split them up. Big Boss left to peruse his own goals. But in that time Zero and his Patriots became too powerful. Hence Big Boss came back to run Foxhound as his cover while completing Outer Heaven as opposition to Zero’s spreading control. Very logical.

I think that it isn't a coherent path is precisely what makes it more appealing, just like Big Boss in the earlier games having his own motives and an ideology that actually kind of works makes him more appealing as a villain than just being a mustache twirling evil genius who laughs maniacally. Also, you really point out the problem that MGS4 brought into the mix: First, you say, Big Boss wanted to create a world where soldier could always have a place, which Is something that is always depicted as wrong by the games themselves. Then you say, he completed Outer Heaven to stop Zero and The Patriots. Suddenly, this makes Big Boss seem like a hero. And why wouldn't he tell Solid Snake about that? MGS4 made it seem that Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land, Shadow Moses and the Big Shell Incident were all attempts at stopping Zero and the Patriots. "A process of trial and error", Ocelot calls it. And I just wasn't buying into it. I wasn't buying, that Big Boss wanted to stop the Patriots and save the world. And Liquid clearly didn't want to do that either. Only Solidus really wanted to do that and he was "played like a damn fiddle".

I'm not saying, you're wrong, but I think your enjoyment of the retcons in MPW and MGSV greatly depend on how much you bought into the retcons of MGS4. You were fine with those, I wasn't.

But you throw MPW in the mix and he sent Paz to kill him with a Metal Gear and to frame him for a nuclear launch. Then MGS5 he took care of him? C’mon. Crazy town. A lot of flip flopping. Really kills the flow of the story. It also doesn’t fit with the ending of MGS4. If Zero was brain damaged since the early 80s, then the whole AI project wasn’t his and taking him “back to zero” is meaningless.

And again, I think you didn't understand that part of PW. The point was, Zero, despite their differences, wanted Big Boss back in the team and he staged the Peace Walker Incident to basically get Big Boss to raise a substantial army that wasn't accountable to any nation and hence could serve as the perfect army for Zero and Cypher. Paz was his failsfe, in case Big Boss wouldn't join him (which he didn't) to steal Metal Gear ZEKE.
As for the rest, again, it depends how much you bought into the retcons of MGS4. Did you buy that the likable Bond-geek who was your friend and CO in MGS3 turned into the evil mastermind behind all the bad things in the series? If you did, MPW and MGSV just waters everything down. If you didn't, MPW and MGSV humanize him and depict him more as a mastermind, whose plans blew up in his face.

Let's talk coherence and flow of the fictional history:

1.) Big Boss and Zero are on the same side and want to make the world The Boss envisioned a reality. BUT Zero ultimately wants world under total control, which Snake knows she doesn't want. Then Les Enfants Terrible Happens, the finals straw and Big Boss leaves.
2.) Bis Boss creates his own group of soldiers, but doesn't want them to be mercenaries, because that also isn't what The Boss wanted. Then Peace Walke Incident happens, Big Boss rejects The Boss completely and goes full on mercenary with nukes and let's make out own nation. Zero wants to get him back, but fails.
3.) Skull Face goes rogue, wipes out MSF and infects Zero with a parasite.
4.) Zero saves Snake and has him protected despite all their differences. He starts developing A.I.s to carry on his will, while he slowly becomes a vegetable. Skull Face isn't stopped and more or less takes over Cypher.
5.) Nine Years later, Big Boss reawakens. He sets up a body double to draw attention to himself with the high profile Diamond Dogs and to keep Skull Face busy, while Big Boss secretly creates his true Outer Heaven. Venom Snake not only keeps Skull Face busy, but exceeds all expectations and kills him and turns Diamond Dogs into a huge operation.
6.) Outer Heaven secretly absorbs Diamond Dogs and Venom Snake is put in charge as a figurehead. Big Boss goes to FoxHound as a mole to keep attention away from Outer Heaven. Meanwhile Cypher, led by Dr. Clark, Donald Anderson and possibly Ocelot at this point, is pretty much laying low and developing its A.I.s, manipulating elections, etc.
7.) The US get wind of Outer Heaven and instruct Big Boss to investigate. He sends in Solid Snake and expects him to fail, but Solid Snake also exceeds expectations, destroys Outer Heaven, unmasks Big Boss as its leader and kills Venom Snake, believing him to be the real Big Boss.
8.) Big Boss rebuilds Outer Heaven as Zanzibar Land and is again defeated by Solid Snake.
9.) Cyphers swoops in and via the US government has its own Metal Gear build. They possibly have some of the A.I.s online in some capacity.
10.) Shadow Moses Incident. Liquid tries to surpass his father by finishing what he couldn't. Solidus manipulates Liquid's ambition via Ocelot to supplant Cypher.
11.) Tanker & Big Shell Incident, revolve all around getting the first of the Patriot A.I.s online. Which Radien and Snake stop, but also not really, since...
12.) The Patriot A.I.s go Online and S.O.P. is activated, spiraling the entire world into an endless spiral of controlled conflict.
13.) Guns of the Patriots Incident, Patriot A.I.s are destroyed, Big Boss wakes from the coma and upon seeing what happened to the world, since the A.I.s accidentally created that place Big Boss used to wish for, he realizes the errors of his ways and accepts Big Boss' will after all. He also puts zero out of his misery.

It's convoluted, but it removes my biggest issues with MGS4:

1.) Making Zero the evil mastermind behind everything
2.) Making Big Boss some sort of hero who tried to do right by The Boss.

Zero is more likable and tragic, since he still cares for his friend in great need, despite their differences.
Big Boss rejects The Boss (hence making him appear less dense) and it seems Cypher/ the Patriots also aren't on his mind anymore, since they appear to be very much weakened during the 1990s, which fits with the games themselves and why those games have no shred of evidence in them about the Patriots even existing. It's more convoluted, yes, but it still fits and honestly, after MGS4 the timeline was already convoluted. You just have to take a look at the Liquid Ocelot topic of old: according to MGS2, Ocelot was possessed. According to MGS4, he was never possessed and just brainwashed himself. So, if you have an already convoluted and contradictory timeline, I think it's okay to make things a little more convoluted if it makes things work better. Also, I think it makes Metal Gear more believable and interesting, so because, lets face it, the real world also has a complex convoluted timeline where multiple things are happening at the same time and interacting in unexpected ways.

Now, that's just world building-aspect of it. But what about storytelling-aspect? Honestly, I'm with you, the tapes were a less than ideal way to tell a story. The pacing in MGSV was off, since many of the missions you did in the game didn't seem to contribute anything to the story. Now, I think MPW did good. It focused on Snake and his evolution from "I don't know what to think" to "F*ck The Boss, she betrayed me, let's make an awesome war-country, this is the future". I like how MSF is something small and neat and becomes something kind of frightening. It told a compelling story in its own right, while also adding to the Metal Gear world. 

But the real issue in my mind is MGSV. While suffering a lot in the execution, it does also tell a compelling story in its own right. In Chapter 1, you are all about revenge, it gives you a purpose and you build your massive army, gain more and more things in the form of platforms, soldiers, Buddys, weapons, etc. But once your target is gone and you are robbed to the vengeance, you kind of lose everything important. In Chapter 2, everything is taken from you: the target of your vengeance, your friends (Huey), your Metal Gear, your most important Buddy and even, finally, your identity. You are not the real Big Boss, you are a huge distraction, and all that's left is the hollow pleasure of doing mission after mission all over again, getting best scores, building and rebuilding your mother base and FOBs, robbing other people's FOBs and retaliating, and so on. It's a great story about how revenge, when it becomes all you live for, can kind of destroy your life.

BUT here is the issue: the story of MGSV doesn't really have anything to do with Metal Gear and its universe. It's its own contained little side story. Which partially works, because it gives you your own very personalized story within the Metal Gear universe. But it also does not work great, because of most of what it adds to the universe, doesn't really have anything to do with the story of Venom Snake. It's rightfully a story that didn't need to be told in the Metal Gear universe (which you can read in two ways: this story shouldn't exist and this shouldn't be a Metal Gear-story). Think about it, all the stuff that's important for the Metal Gear history - Zero being infected, Big Boss creating Outer Heaven - happens off-screen. That's why people love it, and some people hate it. It just shows that the game might have been better off not being a Metal Gear game.

I posted this before, but I would’ve preferred MGS5 to be a 5 Act game, each act taking place at different time. I still don’t think we needed this, but if they had to make an in-between game, this is what I would want:

Act 1 - early 70’s. If Boss and Zero working together as the Patriots. Small mission to start where Big Boss gets injured and falls into a coma. Then wakes in 1972 and maybe we play out a similar style hospital escape scenario. Ends with the reveal of the twins.

Act 2 - late 70’s. Showing flashbacks of Big Boss leaving The Patriots. Dealing with trauma and finding his way. Starting to build his legend and gaining support from soldiers. Maybe a mercenary mission where he saves many and it’s revealed how big he is getting.

Act 3 - early 80’s. Big Boss merc mission where he saves Gray Fox. Starts plans for Outer Heaven.

Act 4 - late 80’s. Outer Heaven in development. Big Boss rescues Wolf. Ends with him taking Fox and Naomi to America.

Act 5 - 1995. Playing as Gray Fox to infiltrate Outer Heaven. Ends with Fox getting captured and Solid Snake walking in to receive his orders from Big Boss.

I think this would have been a cool world-building game, but not really a good story. I think there is a genuinely great story in act I and II about the breaking of a friendship. Come to think of it, what if we played from Gray Fox' perspective the whole time and gradually uncovered Big Boss' past and the circumstances of him leaving. Then again, it would be pretty boring if you are familiar with the series, since you already know all of the important stuff. It's the same kind of problem the recent Solo - A Star Wars Story had. I loved that film, but it also played pretty much by the numbers in terms of storytelling. We don't really learn anything we didn't already know about Han Solo, the Millennium Falcon or Lando. With Star Wars: The Clone Wars (a.k.a. the better version of the prequel trilogy) we got to experience Anakin as a hero, his close friendship with Obi-Wan and Palpatines slow corruption of the Republic. I also think Episode III and it's depiction of Anakin's fall to the dark side, while a bit abrupt, did add to his tragedy.

Okay, this got much longer than I anticipated. My final thoughts on the matter are: Metal Gear just went on too long and it became increasingly difficult for Kojima to tell a compelling story while also expanding the universe, while also not contradicting what has come before. In addition to that, Tomokazu Fukushima left the writing staff of the series after MGS3 and his contributions clearly shouldn't be underestimated, since he apparently was a competent writer who also wasn't afraid to tell Kojima when his ideas got out of hand. Shuyo Murata was clearly less competent and more of a Yes-Man.

And, to reiterate,, I think, what you got out of MPW and MGSV greatly depends on how much you accepted the retcons of MGS4.

[A.G.]

I guess we see MGS4 differently. Much like I don’t see Outer Heaven or Zanzibar as an evil cult, I don’t see Zero as an evil mastermind or Big Boss as trying to be a hero. It’s two men who did what they felt was right.

Zero wanted a controlled environment. In his mind it was the unity The Boss envisioned. Big Boss didn’t feel that his path worked in that type of world. I don’t think that makes one an evil mastermind and the other an opposing hero. That’s why I don’t see any issues in that aspect of MGS4. I don’t think it’s a retcon. I think it’s only seems as an issue if you start classifying characters as good or evil. They’re neither. Just people doing what they think is the right thing.

Is Philanthropy good or evil? Is Solid Snake a hero or a criminal/killer? Depends on who you asked.

Was Paramedic good or evil? The experiments on Gray Fox were horrible. But again he was dead and the research could’ve brought scientific benefits. I’m sure she had the best intentions possible.

Zero and Big Boss aren’t any different. One thought he was bringing unity to the world while the other was building a world where soldiers will always have a place. If you think about, that’s the nature of the conflict. Zero’s unity vision likely looked at eliminating conflict. Big Boss felt war was an inevitable part of the human world. The AI’s in a way merged the two. The world under a single system of control with war as the fuel. Hence I see MGS4 as the logical culmination of the story.