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Post by A.G. on Sept 21, 2008 17:25:38 GMT -5
I wanted to put this together in case some people wonder about Liquid actually possessing Ocelot in MGS2. The official Database is vague on the subject but seems to hint that it was all an act. But that is not the case. Liquid's will actually did take over Ocelot in MGS2. Here is the evidence: 1. During the scene on the Tanker when Liquid takes over you can hear BOTH voices at the SAME TIME, " Get out of my mind Liquid!". 2. When Liquid took over Ocelot's hair actually shrank to match Liquid's hair length from MGS1. You can't do that on the spot... it has to be a biological takeover of some sort:  3. In MGS4 Liquid Ocelot has Ocelot's voice and yet it is claimed that it is the same "trick" that Ocelot used in MGS2. Clearly that was not the case. Ocelot no longer has Liquid's arm in MGS4 and hence it really is an act. But in MGS2 it was a legit take-over. The official Database does confirm that Ocelot got a prosthetic after MGS2 because his psyche was out of balance. Why would he do that if he was acting and then brainwash himself to act some more?! No, the possession was real in MGS2 hence he removed Liquid's arm so that the "act" could be controlled.  |
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Post by TheBrotherOfLight on Sept 22, 2008 2:43:06 GMT -5
I think you're reading to much into it, or at least making it more complicated than it really is.
Sure we heard Cam Clarke play Liquid in MGS2, but that doesn't mean it was part of reality. It could just be symbolic and only meant for us. I mean, we heard it was Liquid, so why didn't Snake? Because I think he heard Ocelots voice, but thought of Liquid because of the sudden change of mannerisms (spelling?) and the way to talk.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 22, 2008 12:17:36 GMT -5
PLEASE tell me you're joking! I'm speechless here...  Dude, EVERYONE heard it! Snake, Solidus. When was the last time you played MGS2? When Liquid takes over during the Tanker he calls Snake brother. "Who are you?!" asked Snaked. "You know who I am!" Snake recognized the voiced, "Liquid?!". Even later in the game when Snake is telling Raiden about the incident he specifically says "And the man that was suppose to be dead" in reference to Liquid. And you ignore the visual proof of the hair! How did it get shorter in the same scene? So you say THAT but before you say: I think it's time you replayed MGS2.  |
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Post by TheBrotherOfLight on Sept 22, 2008 14:12:11 GMT -5
Nah, I know the script in my head (which I think is pretty damn impressive considering it's over 900 pages long) and I replayed just before MGS4 came. But anyways... I'm not saying they didn't know it was Liquid. What I'm saying is that I think they knew it was Liquid because of other things than the voice. Pretend it wasn't Cam Clarke who read those lines. I'm sure you still could tell it was Liquid taking over Revolver Ocelot, because of the way he talks (not refering to the actual voice) is different from Ocelot. Repeating "Brother", being more aggressive in the vocal expression, the way he moves his hands etc. You know how Snake says "Liquid?". Like "Is that really you". I mean, if he had heard the voice of Liquid, he wouldn't have any reason to doubt it was him, right? Though I'm sure he would still be as surprised. But I want to make clear: I'm not saying they don't know it was Liquid (you seemed to think that was what I meant since you brought up "And the man that was supposed to be dead"). I'm saying I don't think they heard Liquids voice. Hard for me to explain. If I put it like this, they wouldn't have had to change the script at all if they decided not to use Cam Clarke. I'm making myself look like a fool huh? ;D Come to think of it, I'm kind of off topic in a way, since the topic is about whether or not Ocelot was faking being taken over by Liquid in MGS2 and not if other character's heard Liquid's voice. And please AG, I don't want to be your other Cernex, so please don't be too hard on me mate. |
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Post by A.G. on Sept 22, 2008 14:21:02 GMT -5
Yes... but he's hearing that voice coming out of Ocelot. And Ocelot was being himself just seconds earlier. I would have a hard time dealing with that too if I was Snake.
But they did. Why would you hire two voice actors if you only need one? And the Metal Gear games have never had moments where the player is suppose to see or hear something that the protagonist does not. Look at MGS4, there is a reason why Clarke was not hired on.
I don't see why they wouldn't hear his voice... I mean... I don't get the thinking. Sounds like you're complicating it for yourself for some reason. ;D
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trustburger
Grunt (level 1)
trust teh burger
Posts: 146
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Post by trustburger on Oct 3, 2008 2:44:12 GMT -5
sh*t got retconed bro. ur explanation makes sense but sadly kojima claims he meant to do something else in mgs2.
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Post by A.G. on Oct 3, 2008 9:33:29 GMT -5
No, I don't think so. I've never heard ANYTHING from Kojima that contradicts what I'm saying about Ocelot. Sure, there are a few parts of the MGS4 Database that are vague enough to be interpreted in a different light, but that's about it.
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Post by A.G. on Oct 17, 2008 12:54:05 GMT -5
Something else I found that adds more merit to the real possession of Ocelot by Liquid:
Agree there 100%! I just wish they would just say that in the game!
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Post by lueluxacky on May 4, 2009 16:39:06 GMT -5
My memory is a little fuzzy , but in the endin when Big Boss says to Snake something like "under circumstances people can be made to play certain roles" one of those flashbacks occurs where you gotta press X an shots from MGS2 Liquid Ocelot appear. I think what Kojima meant to say by having BB say that and that flashback shown is that it was all an act, even in MGS2. Cause lets face HK had no f...ckin idea where he was gonna go with that chareacter back 2001, so he just changed his mind and said Ocelot was fakin it.
Who cares though, Liquid still ended up beinb a pathetic character who got f...cked left and right.
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Post by A.G. on May 5, 2009 9:41:27 GMT -5
No such flashback in that cutscene. There is nothing in MGS4 that states the MGS2 possession was an act. MGS4 and the Database also reinforce that having Ocelot removed Liquid's arm and replaced it with a prosthetic as his psyche was out of balance. Why would he do that if it's all an act? Why would it batter if it's Liquid's arm or a fake arm if it's all just brainwashing? No, the possession in MGS2 was real.
You right about the first part. However, you are not right about Kojima changing anything for MGS4. Ocelot's plot to fool the Patriots was legit in both MGS2 and MGS4, no doubt about that. However, it worked "too well" in MGS2. The possession was real but random. So while it did fool the Patriots, it also forced Ocelot to work out a more permanent solution of drugs, theorapy, and a prosthetic arm. Also, don't forget who Ocelot's father is.
How do you figure? He was a great villain in MGS1. He made a rather surprising and unarothodox return in MGS2. And while he didn't appear in MGS4, his legacy certainly did.
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Post by lueluxacky on May 5, 2009 17:46:00 GMT -5
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Post by A.G. on May 5, 2009 17:58:46 GMT -5
"under circumstances people can be made to play certain roles"
This line does not contradict what I've said in this thread. If anything, it certainly helps the fact that the MGS2 possession was real. It was under the circumstance of being near Solid Snake that the possession took place.
Regardless of how Kojima MAY HAVE wanted to the possesion be explained, MGS4 does not dispute that the MGS2 possession was real. I've already provided all the officially stated comments and all the in-game evidence on the issue. The posession was real.
If you still have doubts about that, ask yourself the question I asked you in my previous post:
The official Database stated that it was the arm that "housed Liquid's will". The possession was not only in voice and personality, but in the physical hair change. And of course, why remove the arm? If the plot is to fool the Patriots, acting out the possesion with Liquid's arm attached would be far more convincing then using a prosthetic. And again, the Database states that he NEEDED to do that to restore balance to his psyche. If it's an act, why would his psyche be out of balance? And why would he switch over to hypnotherapy and drugs after that? Clearly the take over was real but it was something that Ocelot could not control. And the voice... why did he sound like Liquid in MGS2 but not in MGS4? That change was made intetionally by Kojima.
The issue is vague enough to debate, but there is too much evidence that shows the possesion was real. May I ask why you are reviving such an old topic?
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Post by lueluxacky on May 18, 2009 20:07:52 GMT -5
Because i didnt have internet for over half a year and i was just noticing the topic. anyhoo there are a couple of point that id like to point out but ill do that tomorrow when i get back from work
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Post by A.G. on May 18, 2009 20:28:23 GMT -5
Well, the issue does have SOME degree of vagueness, that's for sure. But the evidence can't be argued. And what is shown in MGS2 has to be considered as it is 100% canon.
1. During the scene on the Tanker when Liquid takes over you can hear BOTH voices at the SAME TIME, "Get out of my mind Liquid!".
2. When Liquid took over Ocelot's hair actually shrank to match Liquid's hair length from MGS1. You can't do that on the spot... it has to be a biological takeover of some sort.
3. In MGS4 Liquid Ocelot has Ocelot's voice and not Liquid's. This is because he no longer has Liquid's arm in MGS4 and hence it really is an act. But in MGS2 it was a legit take-over. The official Database does confirm that Ocelot got a prosthetic after MGS2 because his psyche was out of balance. Why would he do that if he was acting and then brainwash himself to act some more?!
4. As a cherry on the top, a bit of added speculation can be added in the fact that Ocelot's father was The Sorrow. It would not be irrational to say that Ocelot may have inherited some of those "powers". At least enough to where it would cause a dubious reaction with Liquid's arm.
5. The Official Database does stated that the attached arm in MGS2 did "house Liquid's will". So... that really can't be argued.
Was it an act in MGS2? No. Was it an act in MGS4? Yes.
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Post by solidelman on Apr 9, 2010 22:32:32 GMT -5
Also, when Ocelot is in RAY and wants to kill everyone present, he's about to press the button when Liquid takes control and he is unable to press it. I really don't think that was an act.
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Dude, EVERYONE heard it! Snake, Solidus. When was the last time you played MGS2? When Liquid takes over during the Tanker he calls Snake brother. "Who are you?!" asked Snaked. "You know who I am!" Snake recognized the voiced, "Liquid?!". Even later in the game when Snake is telling Raiden about the incident he specifically says "And the man that was suppose to be dead" in reference to Liquid. And you ignore the visual proof of the hair! How did it get shorter in the same scene?
