Playing Metal Gear in 2018?

[fgdj2000]

Dec 21, 2017 21:54:07 GMT -5 A.G. said:

And to be clear you can have good games without them being Metal Gear.

Though I think most fans would prefer that the series was more selective about what it branched out into. If the gameplay isn’t traditional MGS and the story is not canon... then how about just making a new IP? That’s what I wish they did with MPO, MPW and MGSV. Those three could’ve made a good new series. They certainly have the core system in common.

The Metal Gear name is just too big a deal. You slap it on those games and they sell more. It's the same old story of creativity vs. marketability. I think especially in the case of MGSV with its drastically different tone, it would have served the game better to be just a new IP and not having the tonal conflict of having child soldiers and mutilated women in a game that also has giant robots and flaming men in them.

The middle ground I made for myself is, it is okay to have a spin off if its good and still has something to do with the series. E.G. Metal Gear Rising, which is a good hack and slash - and is also justified in being that within the series, since Cyborg Ninjas and giant robots are a prominent feature in the game. In turn, Metal Gear Acid might be a good puzzle game, but isn't really justified being in the series, since the series itself has nothing to do with... well... cards.

Peace Walker felt also more like a spin-off to me - a good one (I think it's a good game especially considering the limited platform). It has a very different, somewhat goofy tone when compared to the other main games and the implimentation of Motherbase and the mission structure also make it feel quite different. Actually back in 2009 when it was announced alongside Metal Gear Solid: Rising (not Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance), I really liked the idea of not making MGS5, but branching the series of into two sub-series. But alas, here we are.

So, yeah, Peace Walker and MGSV feel both tonally and gameplay-wise inconsistent with the other games. Don't get me wrong, I still like those two games very much as they are, but Peace Walker was fine as a prequel-spin-off and MGSV would have benefited from being its own IP. To be fair though, MGS4 was also quite different from the other games with its 5-act structure, set-pieces, more streamlined shooting controls, multiple locations, higher emphasis on action and more open environments. Even the story was more concerned with wrapping everything up and world-building than telling a self contained story about being human.

[A.G.]

MGS4 is certainly a unique beast. It has so many flaws but so much greatness as well. Sure, there are a ton of plot issues I’m not a fan of. But if I had to list my top 10 favorite moments in the series this game would take half the list. The structure did start to change here. But I loved it! Each act drastically different. The setting, enemies, what you actually do... brilliant! And there was a purpose for each:

Act 1 - MGS4. An all new setting in a middle eastern war zone.
Act 2 - MGS3. A lot of outdoor activity, tracking and even a Naked Snake style disguise.
Act 3 - MSX. Tailing the resistance as you did in MG2, young Snake face camo, outfit matching Gillian from Snatcher.
Act 4 - MGS1. Literally!
Act 5 - MGS2. Basically infiltrating a version of Arsenal Gear.

Many view this game as the weakest in the main set of titles but I feel it is what it needed to be. It’s a summary of the series. It’s own identity is smaller because it really tried to tie everything together.


As for ideal spinoffs. Ghost Babel! Great plot that has no impact on the main canon. It is a sequel to MG1, but takes the story in a different direction. Creates an alternate scenario for what took place in Outer Heaven. And a damn good game on its own.

[Cerberus_0408]

Hmm...but you once said that in terms of story MSG4 was the weakest.

I personally felt that in regards to story Kojima ran out of gas after MGS3. MGS4 only works if you are a big fan of MGS1-3. As a stand alone game it has a rather disjointed and poorly edited plot. It's a fun reunion and closure to the cast we love, but on its own the story much weaker than the first 3. Peace Walker and MGS5 are not helping either. It's so bad Kojima publically admitted that Phantom Pain will retcon older games. And that's the biggest problem I have. I'm 33 years old. I first played MGS1 when I was 17. Nothing in my eyes is allowed to mess with that game, not even Kojima. I've stated my problems with Peace Walker and how it downplays the importance on MG1 and MG2. Phantom Pain is doing this with MGS1. Why is the "historical weapon" like REX in 1984? Why is young Liquid driving it? Same dumbass reason that Otacon's dad sounds like Otacon, bad writing. Why is everyone related and connected? Why are the mechs in the 70's and 80's better than in the 90's and 2000's? All of this is very frustrating.

[A.G.]

It is. It has little identity of its own. Which is by many fans didn’t like it. But I do. I think it serving as a summary of the series works well.

I think the Metal Gear battle in MGS4 is a great metaphor for the game’s story. In every installment we got a new Metal Gear to fight. In MGS4 we didn’t. Instead we got what we always wondered about, MGS1 Rex vs MGS2 Ray. On its own the game does not have a great plot. But if you have been following the series it’s a fantastic reunion special!

[Cerberus_0408]

But that's the problem. MGS4 should have added a COMPLETELY NEW metal gear threat. MGS5 had sahelanthropus, PW had the big four (Cocoon, PW, Pupa, Chrysalis), PO had its own sh*t and Rising had Armstrong/ Excelsus. The list goes on. My point is, if MGS4 had its own distinct thing, I feel it could've been better. Like you said, the story is waning and I believe that the gameplay, despite combining elements from the previous instalments, was somewhat similar.

[A.G.]

I disagree completely. MGS4 handled the Metal Gear thing correctly. Rex was built as the ultimate Metal Gear. Ray was built as a means to fight it. Making a new “bigger and better” model would be pointless and as Otacon said the age of Metal Gear as a logical weapon was over. Making a new one just for the sake of having something to fight is kinda stupid. There is no purpose to it in the context of the story and it undermines Rex and Ray. Instead we got a dream match of Rex vs Ray. It was handled perfectly and brilliantly! If they would’ve opted to make a new Gear we would’ve gotten and idiotic transformer like Sahelanthropus.

[Cerberus_0408]

Oh. So MGS5 featured a stupid MG threat in your point of view?

[A.G.]

I believe that once you have a series you have to be mindful of existing content as you go in to add something new. New content should not take priority and overshadow old unless it goes with the flow of the story. The series dealt with this brilliantly up to MGS4. MG1 had an unfinished prototype in TX55. MG2 took the next step and made D a fully functional mech. Bigger and badder Rex in MGS1 made logical sense since now it was an official US project. MGS2 gave us Ray, a deterrent to the widespread Metal Gears around the world. MGS3, being a prequel respected TX55 and made Shagohod more of a crawling mech. With Rex and Ray being the peak of this technology and with MGS4 being more of a summary, instead of muddying things up with a new machine we got a Rex vs Ray duel! I guess technically we did get the Gekko. And as Otacon said the age of giant mechs was over. They simply didn’t fit in that world anymore. Gekko was a logical step in that evolution.

Then we get Peace Walker... a 1974 machine that was bigger, faster and more maneuverable than even Ray. And a US government machine at that. It completely undermines the careful evolution the series had. And MGS5 was the final nail in that coffin. Something like Sahelenthrupus belongs in Zone of Enders, not Metal Gear. That’s 1984 tech? Really?! You go from that to TX55. Even Ray and Rex look outdated compared to Sahelanthropus. Things like that are a great example why I will never accept those two titles.

[Cerberus_0408]

Well can you explain WHAT the Sahelanthropus has exactly that makes it superior to Rex and Ray?

[A.G.]

Size, speed, maneuverability, arms, magical whip that controls the ground. Go watch the fight on YouTube. It’s very Zone of Enders.

[fgdj2000]

To be fair, Sahelanthropus didn't really work. It was only because young Mantis used telekinesis on it that it became the behemoth presented in the game. The various tapes also elaborate on this.

As for Peace Walker, admittedly it stretches the suspension of disbelief, but consider both mechs presented in that game were also somewhat flawed projects. Both ran on A.I. programs, Peace Walker didn't properly do its job and could easily be tricked into attacking US mainland and would even join bombardment of US rather than retaliate. ZEKE on the other hand was easily taken over by a little girl and Big Boss barely managed to disable it. Both were failed projects and probably cost a lot of resources and had little success. So, it's believable that no one would put money and resources into development of another Metal Gear for the next 20 years (other than Skull Face, but as I said, this also didn't work).
Also, as a mobile missile launching unit, a smaller, more compact Metal Gear like TX-55 and Metal Gear D makes a bit more sense and seems more advanced and practical to me than the hulking Peace Walker or ZEKE mechs. REX was slower because it was more heavily armored and nothing could penetrate its outer armor. That material must be pretty heavy; no backflips here.

[Cerberus_0408]

AG: thanks for the post, I'll check it out sometime.

Jan 3, 2018 7:11:03 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

To be fair, Sahelanthropus didn't really work. It was only because young Mantis used telekinesis on it that it became the behemoth presented in the game. The various tapes also elaborate on this.

As for Peace Walker, admittedly it stretches the suspension of disbelief, but consider both mechs presented in that game were also somewhat flawed projects. Both ran on A.I. programs, Peace Walker didn't properly do its job and could easily be tricked into attacking US mainland and would even join bombardment of US rather than retaliate. ZEKE on the other hand was easily taken over by a little girl and Big Boss barely managed to disable it. Both were failed projects and probably cost a lot of resources and had little success. So, it's believable that no one would put money and resources into development of another Metal Gear for the next 20 years (other than Skull Face, but as I said, this also didn't work).
Also, as a mobile missile launching unit, a smaller, more compact Metal Gear like TX-55 and Metal Gear D makes a bit more sense and seems more advanced and practical to me than the hulking Peace Walker or ZEKE mechs. REX was slower because it was more heavily armored and nothing could penetrate its outer armor. That material must be pretty heavy; no backflips here.

Well if nobody would invest in a new MG for the next 20 yrs, why were PW and Zeke even made in the first place?

[A.G.]

Jan 3, 2018 7:11:03 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

To be fair, Sahelanthropus didn't really work. It was only because young Mantis used telekinesis on it that it became the behemoth presented in the game. The various tapes also elaborate on this.

As for Peace Walker, admittedly it stretches the suspension of disbelief, but consider both mechs presented in that game were also somewhat flawed projects. Both ran on A.I. programs, Peace Walker didn't properly do its job and could easily be tricked into attacking US mainland and would even join bombardment of US rather than retaliate. ZEKE on the other hand was easily taken over by a little girl and Big Boss barely managed to disable it. Both were failed projects and probably cost a lot of resources and had little success. So, it's believable that no one would put money and resources into development of another Metal Gear for the next 20 years (other than Skull Face, but as I said, this also didn't work).
Also, as a mobile missile launching unit, a smaller, more compact Metal Gear like TX-55 and Metal Gear D makes a bit more sense and seems more advanced and practical to me than the hulking Peace Walker or ZEKE mechs. REX was slower because it was more heavily armored and nothing could penetrate its outer armor. That material must be pretty heavy; no backflips here.

Again, that’s not really the point. Having any of this mecha before MG1 is a retcon. But this has been discussed before. If all this works for you, great. That’s your series. Mine doesn’t include the missing links.

[fgdj2000]

Jan 3, 2018 21:11:17 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Jan 3, 2018 7:11:03 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

To be fair, Sahelanthropus didn't really work. It was only because young Mantis used telekinesis on it that it became the behemoth presented in the game. The various tapes also elaborate on this.

As for Peace Walker, admittedly it stretches the suspension of disbelief, but consider both mechs presented in that game were also somewhat flawed projects. Both ran on A.I. programs, Peace Walker didn't properly do its job and could easily be tricked into attacking US mainland and would even join bombardment of US rather than retaliate. ZEKE on the other hand was easily taken over by a little girl and Big Boss barely managed to disable it. Both were failed projects and probably cost a lot of resources and had little success. So, it's believable that no one would put money and resources into development of another Metal Gear for the next 20 years (other than Skull Face, but as I said, this also didn't work).
Also, as a mobile missile launching unit, a smaller, more compact Metal Gear like TX-55 and Metal Gear D makes a bit more sense and seems more advanced and practical to me than the hulking Peace Walker or ZEKE mechs. REX was slower because it was more heavily armored and nothing could penetrate its outer armor. That material must be pretty heavy; no backflips here.

Again, that’s not really the point. Having any of this mecha before MG1 is a retcon. But this has been discussed before. If all this works for you, great. That’s your series. Mine doesn’t include the missing links.

Right. It's a shame. Especially Peace Walker went overboard with its whopping 5 Mechs! But as I said before, the game clicked for me in different places, so I'm willing to forgive it this flaw and can make it work. But I can understand that not everyone can reconcile these issues.

[Cerberus_0408]

Yeah. The problem is, if you consider PW truly canon, well... it essentially sends MG1, 2 and MGS1 down the drain. But then again, official canon has been bullsh*t. And AG probably doesn't even give a flying fark about it anymore.