Is MGS5 Three Games?

[A.G.]

Saw this. And while I’m not fan of these titles, the logic is sound.



MGS5: The Walkman Trilogy. Definitely cleans it up. This also just confirms that these games should have been a new IP. They are more connected in design and story with each other than the other 6 installments. In terms of overall design you clearly see three eras for the series:


Metal Gear Era: 1987-1990, 2D style of the MSX with focus to create something more than just a game.

Solid Era: 1998-2008, covering the MGS1-4 run. A very specific gameplay style and focus on epic and lengthy cinematic presentation.

Walkman Era: 2010-2015, exploring new structure and presentation with Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain. More episodic TV style.


The three eras certainly have their own look and feel. Once again, Metal Gear proves to be very unique in the gaming industry.

[fgdj2000]

Yeah. Actually saw this recently as well. It's actually a pretty good channel from what I've seen so far, though I lack the patience for their... diamonds and demons (??) series, which seems to be the heart piece of their channel.

Also agree on the era. Playing MPW back then (OMG it's been 10 years!) felt like playing MGS1 for the first time in part, because it was a new story and gameplay style within an established canon and IP. Watching this video really made me want to play all 8 games again (I consider Ground Zeroes and TPP to be one game) and Death Stranding.

Hope you're still fine.

[A.G.]

You know, MGS2 is aging like fine wine for me. Wrapped it up this week and it’s so brilliant. We are living it now! Kojima totally called it! And the Raiden character evolution and rejecting player control at the end... amazing! Coupled with the brilliant example of misinformation in the marketing campaign for the game and there is no equal to this title! While I still don’t like some of the presentation choices in the third act, everything else is incredibly smart and head and shoulders above the rest of the series in that regard. For me, each game game excelled in a specific area:

MG1 - The Innovation. Most games in the series offered something new, but this was easily the biggest step.

MG2 - The Cleverness. I’ve never seen so much cleverness delivered in such limited hardware. Very out of the box thinking, pun intended.

MGS1 - The Feel. All elements combine to deliver feel to the overall experience. I believe that’s what made it so iconic.

MGS2 - The Brains. Smartest game I’ve ever played and decades ahead of its time.

MGS3 - The Craftsmanship. Everything is meticulously crafted to a crazy detail.

MGS4 - The Heart. The game has many flaws compared to the first three but it’s all heart. Unapologetically riding off into the sunset.


I don’t know if I have a label for MPW and MGS5. You may be better suited to come up with some. Thoughts? Maybe “A New Direction”?

[fgdj2000]

Interesting "theory". In that naming convention, I probably would name them:

MGS PW - The Reinvention. Starts a new story arc and reinvents the formula for a limited hand-held and makes it work, by changing the meta-game.

MGSV - The Passing On. In the game Kojima gives an unprecedented level of control to the player (or, he is passing on the control), while also placing him in an open world. The story takes almost a back seat in favor of player expression, while also bringing over and expanding upon the meta-game systems in MGSPW.

On the other hand, I have also observed, that Kojima basically establishes the basic formula of the series until MGS2 and then each subsequent game puts a spin on that core system.

MG1 - Basic sneaking algorithm and Zelda-esque meta-game (progressing through acquiring different items)

MG2 - introduced alert and evasion mode, greatly expanded on enemy A.I. (sound recognition, field of vision), adds crawling, makes environment more realistic, etc.

MGS1 - introduced third dimension, new art style and a greater focus on the story and cinematic storytelling.

MGS2 - introduced Caution Mode and greatly expanded on enemy A.I. again (hold-up, calling for back up, non-disappearing bodies) and makes a non-lethal run possible.

MGS3 - Puts a survival spin on the gameplay, you have to maintain Snake, blend into your environment, but also have more opportunities messing with your enemies.

MGS4 - Puts a "war zone" spin on things. You can now help one side in the war and use the chaos to your advantage, while also streamlining survival mechanics and featuring more open ended areas.

MGS PW - Puts a mission-spin on things. Greater emphasis is now on planning a mission and expanding and managing your private army.

MGSV - Puts an open. world spin on things. Now you are thrown in an open world and are given a lot of freedom doing missions, from the managing of mother base (developing new weapons and items) to the planning of missions (load-out, time of day, come up with a route) to the execution of missions (on-the-fly strategy-changes, improvisation, trying different tactics) to even giving you more freedom in how you want to experience the story (it's theoretically up to you when you listen to cassette tapes and how many of them you listen to, e.g. how deeply you want to explore the story - although Kaz and Ocelot keep talking over them xD)

Anyway, I guess we can agree that this series is pretty smart, pretty great and personally, I love that each installment plays notacibly different from the last. Compare that to other game series, which usually play almost the same all the way through or to a point when they are reinvented in some way. For instance, Uncharted 4 plays almost identical to Uncharted 1).

[A.G.]

So much depth to explore in one franchise. Few offer that!

[Cerberus_0408]

I definitely agree that there's some sort of pattern to this.

MG1 - the game that started it all. I still think the first is the best. At least for movies. (Look at the movie Speed, one of the greatest thrillers imo. Bomb on a bus, the game is simple to understand. Its sequel, on a BOAT? Lmao. The first Terminator. A mindless killing machine sent to destroy humanity. A machine, versus a combat-untrained woman. The type of person who's definitely considered to be MOST vulnerable. Some sequels were good, but Genisys and Dark Fate...ehhh at best. Even the SCC definitely screws the stuff up in terms of timeline. I'd even say the same for Salvation!)

MG2 - built upon the successful traits of the previous story. Psychological warfare involved, you thought the villain was DEAD, but like the Terminator he told you "I'll come back"

MGS1 - improved on a DIFFERENT level. Set the stage for MGS4.

MGS2 - again psychological warfare involved with cyber warfare. You didn't play as Snake, you played as Raiden. (At least for the Shell part). The world is what you think it is, not everything is true. Believe what you will, as the enemy hacks the sh*t out of the electronic systems, the Colonel goes batsh*t insane, and at the ending you get the revelation that SSS is NOT Solid Snake Simulation. The twists get into your brain, like Inception.

MGS3 - once again psychological warfare. You play as Snake, but thrown BACK into a time loop. You had to confuse your enemy using camo systems and the stealth ability. The Fear was nigh impossible to track without infrared vision, you can't hit what you can't see. The End could use photosynthesis to regen his HP, again a battle based on psychology. The Fury was fought in the dark, the Sorrow sent the ghosts of dead enemies to suck your HP, The Boss was again, fought in a white background. No timer involved, but the Snake Eater main theme played during the next half of the fight. And the BIGGEST psychological warfare factor? The Boss, whom you were told to kill, the mentor who had supposedly become an enemy, was actually acting on a CONSPIRACY! You did it all for nothing!

MGS4 - the previous games taken to a WHOLE NEW level. The flashbacks to Shadow Moses? Psychological warfare be damned! Crying Wolf? Had an OVERSIZED sniper rifle with infinite rounds! Rex vs Ray? Metal Gear battles taken to the NEXT decade! And the best part? The last duel on Outer Haven. Ocelot and his relative, engaging in a pure CQC duel!

MGS5 - what can I say about this? You get psychological warfare? Hell yes! Ability to change the weather? Taking down enemies with hit-and-run methods, cutting their resources? A battle of attrition or laying siege? Guerilla tactics or unconventional warfare? Sabotage...the list goes on. Also, extra ops.

PW - planning is EVEYRTHING. Strategy and tactics rule the battlefield. You had to choose your weapons BEFORE entering combat. The real lack of weapons and camo system might seem a let down to some, but really, what kind of game forces you to think three steps ahead PRIOR to making a move? You can't even pause the game while in the equipment menu! Monster Hunter? f...ck yeah! Rathalos, Tigrex, raptors, even the damned cats! Again, Extra Ops? Replay value SKYROCKETS!

Acid - I haven't played this. Maybe somebody else can add to this.

Portable Ops - the debate for this being true canon or not rages on. Is it a legit entry with the rest of the games? Can't really say. Parts of it are, Kojima pussies out, but whatever. The point is, it was a precursor to PW. You had to choose a squad, with corresponding advantages and weaknesses, BEFORE the game began. Definitely a reminder of the Battlefield games. One soldier could be a medic, one a gunner, one a marksman, one a recon, one an engineer (and tank destroyer) etc.

Revengeance - Again. Psychological warfare rules. You didn't play as Snake, but as RAIDEN. For the WHOLE game. NO weapons allowed. Except? You guessed it, a KATANA! You may be wondering, how the hell do I dodge the missiles like I did on the Shagohod, or the Ray battle? You COULD use some limited guns, but as a whole...Actually, the Armstrong duel is a PARODY to the series. Lmao

As you can see, the game is gradually improving. Psychological warfare is DEFINITELY a checklist that runs throughout the ENTIRE series!

[Cerberus_0408]

Come to think of it, MGS5 was pretty farking dark and depressing. Much like TDKR to Nolan's trilogy, the entry that I assumed garnered the most negative emotion from the audience in that series. You listened to a psycho forcing a boy to penetrate a female prisoner, saw the result of a bomb planted inside a young girl (who had to kill herself to prevent a chopper from blowing up) Sniper wolf (or a copycat of her) unable to speak and almost naked, and the violence must have been notched up a sh*tload compared to the previous games. I've seen clips of Quiet completely ravaging the would-be rapists, killing that doctor with her piano wire and Snake brutally owning some CQC opponents. The H2H battles in particular were particularly graphic in contrast to MGS3 and 4's duels. (Probably something to be expected tho, since each game essentially repeats the previous instalment but yet improves on it) It's like John Woo or the Matrix trilogy brothers had directed the game.

[A.G.]

To me there was never a debate about MPO. Simple reality is that MPO and MG2 can’t be in the same timeline. Gray Fox is in both and tells a different story about his background. So either you pick one or the other, can’t be both.

[fgdj2000]

May 4, 2020 1:32:46 GMT -5 A.G. said:

To me there was never a debate about MPO. Simple reality is that MPO and MG2 can’t be in the same timeline. Gray Fox is in both and tells a different story about his background. So either you pick one or the other, can’t be both.

Dito. It always bugged me a little that it basically recycled the plot of MGS1. Snake has do go against his former Unit, which now consists of super-powered individuals. There's rank jaeger as a Ninja (did he really have to be a ninja?! At least Kojima put an uncomfortable twist on Otacon's dad eventually), there's a brother figure (Liquid Snake and Gene), there's a psychic who (kinda) breaks the forth wall (Mantis and Elisa/ Ursula)... and it also bothered me that the game suggested Big Boss didn't come up with Outer Heaven and essentially just modified Gene's Army's Heaven. 

It also didn't really have a big real-life theme to talk about. PW and MGSV talked about Peace and Language/ Revenge respectively, even if not always gracefully (Kaz, Paz, Studying the peace constitution at the University of Peace o.O). I have to admit, I am a Kojima purist and like he does, I'm not really interested in how much canon MPO is, but if it's directed by him or not. 

[Cerberus_0408]

Well according to IMDB, the game was directed by Masahiro Yamamoto and Kojima is credited for the story. The latter also produced it.

Also the Wikia page discussion on PO says that "the events of Portable Ops are definitely included in the timeline in the same manner as the Outer Heaven Uprising and Zanzibar Land Disturbance."

Here is more evidence of the game being considered canon metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Metal_Gear_Solid:_Portable_Ops

[A.G.]

Meh, wikis... lol

Here is MG2:


Says Big Boss saved him in Vietnam after the Vietnam War ended. The war ended in 1975. Second time was Mozambique when he was a Renamo soldier. Renamo was established in 1975. So the absolute earliest meeting would’ve been 1975.

MPO offers a different take:


MPO takes place in 1970 and says the Mozambique meeting was 4 years earlier, in 1966. Obviously no reference to Vietnam.


As such the two games can’t exist in the same timeline as Gray Fox in MPO would be much older and would have a different history with Big Boss. This is straight out of game footage, so the wikis arguments are irrelevant. Facts are facts.

[A.G.]

Going off the Gray Fox thing, these types of issues prevent other elements from existing together as well.

MPO and MPW can’t exist together. When Big Boss was talking to Huey about building Zeke, Huey called it Metal Gear. Big Boss immediately recalled Granin and his plans from 10 years prior. He somehow forgot destroying two actual Metal Gears (RAXA and ICBMG) only 4 years prior and on the same continent!

Actually, the Granin thing conflicts MPW with MGS3 as well. It’s far more logical that Granin would’ve been friends with Hal’s grandfather rather than Huey. Huey was born in 1945. So at the time of Snake Eater he would’ve been 19. The picture in Granin’s office shows a much older man.



And he is standing. lol Unless Granin is sitting in his lap.

I’m a details guys, so sh*t like this bothers me. This is why I’m against cramming new story between existing installments. You are practically begging to retcon things!

[Cerberus_0408]

Actually i realised i made a mistake by saying that PO is indeed canon. Re-read the link i provided and this is what we get...

"Unfortunately for those diehard Portable Ops fans out there, the sad truth is that the game is now considered outside the main saga of games by Kojima, Konami and the fanbase in general. For a long time even this wiki was confused about what was included in the canonical saga, but thankfully with the release of The Phantom Pain, the situation has clarified to the point where the wiki admins have decided to group together only the Metal Gear Saga games apart from the spinoff games like Ghost Babel, Portable Ops and the Ac!d series, which are all part of a separate timeline canon. To clear up any remaining doubt, I have compiled a comprehensive list of evidence supporting this stance such that it can all be read in one place. Without further ado, here are the facts:

Exhibit A: The Metal Gear Timeline

Kojima recently released this picture showing the officially recognized timeline of games. Notice that it only includes the Core8 games.

i3.endoftheinter.net/i/n/26035f588b83cd7ea3bf78078e0c9c4f/Metal-Gear-Snake-Timeline.jpg

Exhibit B: New Kojima Interview

In a recent interview, Hideo Kojima spoke briefly about this topic and said the following: "I always say 'this will be my last Metal Gear,'" Kojima said, "but the games in the series that I've personally designed and produced -- Metal Gear on MSX, MG2, MGS1, 2, 3, 4, Peace Walker, and now MGSV -- are what constitute a single 'Metal Gear Saga.' With MGSV, I'm finally closing the loop on that saga."

Thats right Kojima confirms that the Core8 games are what constitute the single "Metal Gear Saga". This interview is the most recent interview where Kojima discusses the topic, so it obviously supersedes the old interview where he said that it was partially canon.

Source: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlZ-HQY4jQ

Exhibit C: Old Kojima Interview was mistranslated

One of the main reasons this myth has been so tough to kill is because of an old interview where Kojima supposedly says that Portable Ops is canon. Even if it were true, it would be moot now anyways since he has since gone on record saying the opposite (See exhibit B). However it actually turns out that this interpretation was in fact caused by an awkward translation.

It turns out that Kojima was really trying to emphasize that he views the major difference to be whether or not the game was "directed/written/designed" by him or simply "produced". He goes on to specify that the former classification are games that fall under the "A Hideo Kojima Game" banner, and that just happens to be the Core8!

Portable Ops does not in fact carry this distinction which is one of the earliest indicators that it was outside the main saga. Compare the box art for PO and PW:

PoOps Cover: i4.endoftheinter.net/i/n/75f3f9708e14d1d7dfb18b116a7eb0b2/75892_front.jpg

Peace Walker Cover: i2.endoftheinter.net/i/n/13b549ded0f79fff52422379e48452cc/7[1].jpg

Source: solidkenny87.tumblr.com/post/97125545680/clearer-translation-of-kojimas-mpo-answer

Exhibit D: Ground Zeroes Deja Vu mission

In Ground Zeroes there is an unlockable bonus mission called "Deja Vu". In this mission every logo from every Metal Gear game ever made was scattered around the map. Using a special gun you could try to erase certain logos. However, ONLY the Core8 game logos were erasable. Kaz will say certain positive things when you erase a Core8 logo, such as "You can erase the image, but the memories will live on". However when you try to erase a non-canon game he will say things like "Metal Gear... Something Something" and "I don't remember that one." This is Kojima being a bit tongue in cheek about the status of the Core8 games.

Here is a pretty funny video showing this part of the game:https://youtu.be/_e4BrZepC1w?t=6673 (if the time url doesn't work the time is 1:51:13)

Exhibit E: MGSV Guide Book

The recently release MGSV guide book was personally approved by series creator Hideo Kojima who provided input for many of the books sections. In particular there is a section that discusses the history of the game series and has a detailed timeline. The timeline makes no mention of Portable Ops other than a reference under 1970 about Ocelot securing the other half of the Legacy. However no mention of the San Hieronymo Incident or any other details from PO are present.

Additionally there is a page detailing the events of the early 1970s, when PO is said to have taken place. However, the article makes absolutely no reference to PO at all, confirming that it is not included in the timeline of the series.

Timeline Image: i2.endoftheinter.net/i/n/d4e82ed2e88db6a9768bd4998fa85349/unnamed.jpg

1970s Page Image: i4.endoftheinter.net/i/n/fd002ecbe566e6ac8817a304114ac3ba/oceshot.jpg

Exhibit F Metal Gear Solid Legacy Collection

PO is not included in the MGS Legacy Collection, which is advertised as containing all canonical games in the series at that point in time (hence it does not contain MGSV)

[A.G.]

It all boils down to originally he wanted in canon. But they did a sh*t job so they gradually phased it out and Peace Walker was built as a replacement. I believe that’s why he did it in the PSP, to have one of HIS games on that system.

[fgdj2000]

May 5, 2020 1:16:29 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Going off the Gray Fox thing, these types of issues prevent other elements from existing together as well.

Actually, the Granin thing conflicts MPW with MGS3 as well. It’s far more logical that Granin would’ve been friends with Hal’s grandfather rather than Huey. Huey was born in 1945. So at the time of Snake Eater he would’ve been 19. The picture in Granin’s office shows a much older man. [(quote]

This never really bothered me, because it's not ar fetched the Granin had contact with both Huey and Dr. Emmerich Sr. (Edward Emmerich? Wouldn't that be a great name^^) Huey was probably even at 19 very brilliant and maybe wrote a couple of letters himself (or some years prior when he was 15-ish).

And he is standing. lol Unless Granin is sitting in his lap.

Haha, this made me laugh.

I’m a details guys, so sh*t like this bothers me. This is why I’m against cramming new story between existing installments. You are practically begging to retcon things!

Hmm, if it's small stuff it doesn't bother me that much, especially if the change improves the story that's told in the particular installment. So, honestly, until I read about the contradiction somewhere, I didn't even notice that Frank Jaeger's backstory doesn't add up, which is sad, because it probably would just have taken a little research. Or, how about turning MPO's Mozambique into Vietnam? It would be a smaller contradiction.

However, I generally do agree that so-called interquels that occur between existing installments are really really hard to get right and are generally a bad idea. I think the main reason is, that most interquel-stories just tend to exploit nostalgia and don't really have a story to tell, especially since the more interesting bits have already been explored elsewhere. However, for me, the "Walkman Trilogy" worked, because it pretty much told its own story within the larger framework of the series and somehow clicked with me, which is why I can see past certain things, such as how advanced the technology is.