Phantom Pain - Part of Main Story?

[A.G.]

I'm currently playing MG2 and decided to revisit Ground Zeroes. Don't know why. I will say that the Ground Zeroes sandbox continues to impress me. Elements of an open world environment but all the details of Kojima game (details that were absent in Phantom Pain). But back on point. What relevance does Phantom Pain has to the overall story? Frankly, I don't see it. Sure, it takes place in the canon, but the events are irrelivant. Outside of the hospital chapter that shows Big Boss, the rest has no real connection to the main story. Diamond Dogs, unlike MSF, really didn't contribute to Outer Heaven.

It just seems that Phantom Pain has all the characteristics of a side story. Like, Rogue One to Star Wars. Thoughts?

[fgdj2000]

Parts of it yes, parts of it no. It fills in a lot of the blanks. We get an explanation for the Cobra's powers (nano- I mean parasites!), how Big Boss could survive a nuclear explosion in MG1 (by not being there), what happened to all the characters in Peace Walker, how the Patriot A.I.s took shape and most importantly, it really fleshed out the relationship of Zero, Big Boss and the Patriots. So, in that sense, I say it's important and adds a lot of information to the series main story. I'd argue, story-wise PW and MGSV are sort of a post-script, like the appendices in Lord of the Rings, where the main story has already ended, but there are these 150 pages left that really flesh out many pieces of the fictional history and storyline. So in that sense, I guess you can call bot PW and V a side-story.

[A.G.]

Patriots AI? See, I disagree on that. The AIs that became the Patriots were developed much later. What we saw in Peace Walker doesn't shed any light on the actual Patriot system. Yeah, they were simple prototypes, but that doesn't expand on the needed info about the Patriots system. I see no benefit to the story there.

I also disagree on getting more on the Zero-Big Boss relationship. So he visited him in the hospital... so what? It showed that Zero cares for Big Boss? We already knew that from MGS4. As Eva said, he was an irreplaceable friend. Speaking of which, the whole Zero became brain damaged doesn't fit. Big Boss was brought in after Zanzibar and became the key to the Patriots system. That would be the year 2000. And that would only happen because Zero would want it to happen. And how could he do it if he was brain damaged and in isolation since the late 70s?

Sorry, I don't see it. The new info simply doesn't fit with existing story. And part of the problem is because Kojima decided to write new sh*t instead of telling the story that actually needed to be told. Where is the Les Enfants Terrible project? Where is Big Boss joining and leaving the Patriots? Where is the formation of Outer Heaven? That's the missing link! And it's still missing.

[Cerberus_0408]

I also disagree on getting more on the Zero-Big Boss relationship. So he visited him in the hospital... so what? It showed that Zero cares for Big Boss? We already knew that from MGS4. As Eva said, he was an irreplaceable friend. Speaking of which, the whole Zero became brain damaged doesn't fit. Big Boss was brought in after Zanzibar and became the key to the Patriots system. That would be the year 2000. And that would only happen because Zero would want it to happen. And how could he do it if he was brain damaged and in isolation since the late 70s?

Regarding the part about Zero's brain damage, MGS4 specifically states that Big Boss's coups were the reason that the Patriots AIs were commissioned by Zero, that Zero gave the order to preserve Big Boss as an icon, respectively, and it was implied that his vegetative state in 2014 was simply due to Zero growing old and that he had entered such a state some time after 2005.

[A.G.]

Yeah, the parasite thing was only introduced in the Phantom Pain. That's why in between games are so dangerous. You want to add new things but you have to be mindful of existing material. And I will take MG1-MGS4 over anything in MPW-MGS5 when it comes two story conflicts.

[fgdj2000]

Dec 24, 2016 1:36:45 GMT -5 A.G. said:

That's why in between games are so dangerous. You want to add new things but you have to be mindful of existing material.

Totally agree here. But the parasite thing wasn't too obtrusive. It just fleshed out why Zero became vegetative and made him more tragic and it also explained the Cobras, since The End corpse was what inspired Code Talker's research. The A.I.'s being prototyped by Dr. Strangelove was also a bit of cool connective tissue that wasn't too obtrusive. You could just leave it the way it was, but those little tidbits don't hurt it, imo, just like Rogue One doesn't hurt Episode IV. It actually enhances it.

[A.G.]

How does Rogue One enhance Star Wars? I take that back, I know what you will say. I finally get why you and I don't agree on this. I believe in telling a good story. You believe in building a fictional world. A full world/universe will not have the ability to flow well like a well-structured story. It will have a lot of side stories and at times boring elements.

But the truth here is that a good story is what stands the test of time. They can make as many Star Wars films as they want but only the original Trilogy will ever matter. Same with Metal Gear. MGS1, MGS2, MGS3 and to a lesser degree MGS4 will be remembered. I don't see MPW or MGS5 standing the test of time.

[Cerberus_0408]

Dec 31, 2016 5:47:51 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

Dec 24, 2016 1:36:45 GMT -5 A.G. said:

That's why in between games are so dangerous. You want to add new things but you have to be mindful of existing material.

Totally agree here. But the parasite thing wasn't too obtrusive. It just fleshed out why Zero became vegetative and made him more tragic and it also explained the Cobras, since The End corpse was what inspired Code Talker's research. The A.I.'s being prototyped by Dr. Strangelove was also a bit of cool connective tissue that wasn't too obtrusive. You could just leave it the way it was, but those little tidbits don't hurt it, imo, just like Rogue One doesn't hurt Episode IV. It actually enhances it.

Firstly, I disagree with the Strangelove and AI's. You must remember that MPO is STILL canon. So when you look at MPW, you MUST consider MGS3 and MPO. And as such, the story is HORRIBLY done. Three games that revolve around the same thing, Big Boss crying about The Boss. Only in MPW she's an AI with butterflies... Gimme a f...ckin' break...

Also, I agree with the main SW trilogy being needed and nothing else. I CANNOT stand the new trilogy. And just like Anakin, Big Boss went from a mythical legend to a whiny bitch! As the MG games increase in quantity Big Boss just becomes less bearable.

When you play the original MG trilogy and MGS2, Big Boss is presented to be a god! MGS3 gave him back some "humanity", but not enough to mess with the mythical part of the guy. MPW, PO and GZ/ PP really water him down. The more we know of him the less famous he becomes.

[A.G.]

MPO isn't canon after MPW. I have a section on MGF where I outlined how the two games can't exist in the same timeline. They just can't.

I think at this point we should consider the possibility of multiple timelines. The reality is that the effect of the story varies depending on which one you go by:

Main Core: MGS3 - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 - MGS4 (a complete story as of 2006, outlined in the Saga documentary)

Expanded: MGS3 - MPW - MGS5 - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 - MGS4 (as of 2015)

From a storytelling perspective the two end up telling two rather different stories. The entire feel and flow changed after MPW and MPO. So I feel like it's up to the gamer to figure out what they want. Like Star Wars, I only look at the original trilogy for the complete story. Metal Gear is no different. In a way, MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 was originally the complete story. But I felt that using MGS3 and MGS4 specifically as bookends with intent to tell the origin and the conclusion worked. It enhanced instead of hinder the other games. But shoehorning things into the middle was a problem and it created a new story, one that as a whole is much less effective.

[Cerberus_0408]

I didn't insinuate that PO was canon after PW. Not once did I ever imply that. And yeah, I agree with the storyline having a SIGNIFICANT deviation depending on which set of events you believe in. MGS, as is the case with SW, requires me to generally ignore add-ons, which should be enjoyed not so much for the story but more so for the gameplay. Like I mentioned beforehand, it's sad that Kojima has essentially rendered MGS into a pile of total bullsh*t but that's just the way game companies work. I mean, how do you expect CoD to be so damn successful if they keep pumping out game after game every year? Yeah, the gameplay is mostly the same except for distinctions that each game adds on but that doesn't change the fact that MILLIONS buy them across the globe. I think that sadly, the same can be said of MGS. The entire series has been going downhill in story; but nonetheless, fans always purchase the game anyway without fail.

[fgdj2000]

First off, Happy New Year!

Dec 31, 2016 10:43:43 GMT -5 A.G. said:

How does Rogue One enhance Star Wars? I take that back, I know what you will say. I finally get why you and I don't agree on this. I believe in telling a good story. You believe in building a fictional world. A full world/universe will not have the ability to flow well like a well-structured story. It will have a lot of side stories and at times boring elements.

But the truth here is that a good story is what stands the test of time. They can make as many Star Wars films as they want but only the original Trilogy will ever matter. Same with Metal Gear. MGS1, MGS2, MGS3 and to a lesser degree MGS4 will be remembered. I don't see MPW or MGS5 standing the test of time.

Are you kidding me? The entire point of your argument was that the new games sh*t on the continuity of the Metal Gear series (and therefore destroy the fictional Metal Gear world for you). With more powerful mechs ins the 70s and 80s, seeming contradictions with existing lore (Ocelot - Eli interactions vs. Revolver Ocelot - Liquid Snake interactions). You base your entire argument on the fact that the newer games contradict the games up until MGS4 and my main arguments were:
1.  They don't contradict as much as you may think, even fix some of the earlier continuity issues. Overall, the continuity is pretty well preserved for a 30-year old story, told by one mind, who wanted each installment to be the series' last.
2. I think it is fine to make retcons to tell a new and interesting story with some surprises, rather than telling exactly the story that fans expect.

What I am trying to say about MGSV specifically, is, that I think the story itself is pretty good, even if it wasn't told very well. There is a difference. The Star Wars prequels are a prime example of telling a good story (peaceful republic is rotting from within, Jedi order has become too dogmatic, young idealistic Jedi gets misguided into becoming evil, galactic civil war tears galaxy apart, gives rise to fascist dictatorship) very poorly (poorly directed, poorly written dialogue, poor acting likely because of poor direction, over reliance on special effects, etc.).

As for Rogue One: it does enhance the story flow, if you will. It actually visualizes the cruelty of the Empire more than the OT ever did and therefore makes the Rebels' fight much more justified. Secondly, the Galen-Erso-sabotaged-the-Death-Star-explanation adresses the ancient little plot hole on how the Death Star could be destroyed so easily and finally, the sacrifice of Jyn and the others makes R2-D2's quest at the beginning of A New Hope much more pressing.

[A.G.]

The games in the series present a single story. If you have multiple installments they have to tell a coherent story when you look at them together. I'm not going to argue with you again about how much damage MPW and MGS5 have done to that story flow. There is no evidence you can show me to change my mind. I've played MPW multiple times and just replayed MGS5 from beginning to end. The story does not fit anymore and everything that was meant to be big, exciting and cutting edge reveals in the later games has been diminished or eliminated. If you are fine with that, great. That's the series for you. I don't like it. And therefore what I see the Metal Gear series as, is different from you. Some people still cling to MPO being canon. The series is big enough for everyone to take away whatever they want.

As for Rogue One, this:

[fgdj2000]

Jan 2, 2017 12:42:01 GMT -5 A.G. said:

The games in the series present a single story. If you have multiple installments they have to tell a coherent story when you look at them together. I'm not going to argue with you again about how much damage MPW and MGS5 have done to that story flow.There is no evidence you can show me to change my mind. I've played MPW multiple times and just replayed MGS5 from beginning to end. The story does not fit anymore and everything that was meant to be big, exciting and cutting edge reveals in the later games has been diminished or eliminated.

Hmm, to say it in MGSV's own words: "There are no facts, only interpretations." I'm also tired of arguing with someone who doesn't seem to get the whole point of the Metal Gear series in the first place: "Don't focus on words so much, try to find the meaning behind the words, then decide." You are only focusing on the words and not at all on the point of them. The Metal Gear series isn't a single story, it is a series of episodes, each meant to be the last one, each adding new info to the world of Metal Gear in order to reshape the world each time to adhere the storytelling purpose of each game, and, most importantly, each game has a lot to say that goes beyond the story of the fictional universe, beyond the story of Solid Snake, Big Boss or any other one character or even the characteristic Metal Gear mechs, and is meant to teach us, or those of us who are willing to listen, about the world. They talk about the human condition and while they aren't always doing this gracefully and can be a bit bloated with the meticulous details of the fictional world, the games always succeed in getting these core themes across. GENE, MEME, SCENE, SENSE, PEACE, RACE & REVENGE, these are what you should focus on. But you just don't get it and whine about Eli not matching what we thought we knew about Liquid Snake or the Mechs in PW and V seem too advanced or the Phantom Big Boss is out of nowhere and so on. You are blind to what the Metal Gear series is really about and yet take your opinions and treat them as hard facts.

If you are fine with that, great. That's the series for you. I don't like it. And therefore what I see the Metal Gear series as, is different from you. Some people still cling to MPO being canon. The series is big enough for everyone to take away whatever they want.

And that is a surprisingly insightful closing statement from someone as bigoted as you appear to be. I will and you will, too. And that is the beauty of it. But in the end, it is you, who keeps opening up new topics about how bad you think MGSV and PW are, how they would not fit with the "story flow" of the series, and how far the series has fallen, instead of just taking what you like and leaving those games, that you didn't enjoy, behind.

[A.G.]

Hmm, to say it in MGSV's own words: "There are no facts, only interpretations." I'm also tired of arguing with someone who doesn't seem to get the whole point of the Metal Gear series in the first place: "Don't focus on words so much, try to find the meaning behind the words, then decide." You are only focusing on the words and not at all on the point of them.

See, that's the problem. There is no meaning in MGS5 and MPW. You liked the games so you attach bull sh*t reasoning as to how the story is better. Yet the reality is that even Kojima admitted it doesn't fit. He stated publically that now only some of things in MPO fit. That MGS5 clashes with other games in terms of story. That he would do the story of the MSX games differently now. You have the nerve to tell me that I don't get Metal Gear? No, buddy, you don't get storytelling 101. Changing something that exists isn't always progress. The story of MGS5 is a universally recognized mess and you think it adds more meaning to the series? Please! I'm sure that you also thought that medichlorines added meaning to the Force.

The Metal Gear series isn't a single story, it is a series of episodes, each meant to be the last one, each adding new info to the world of Metal Gear in order to reshape the world each time to adhere the storytelling purpose of each game, and, most importantly, each game has a lot to say that goes beyond the story of the fictional universe, beyond the story of Solid Snake, Big Boss or any other one character or even the characteristic Metal Gear mechs, and is meant to teach us, or those of us who are willing to listen, about the world.

A series of episodes is still a single story. Much like a TV show, all episodes need to connect to make a point. Seriously, why am I explaining this?! And yes, these games DID teach us. But that stopped at MGS3. Even MGS4, which I liked a lot, was just fan service without a point. MPW and MGS5 had no lessons.


They talk about the human condition and while they aren't always doing this gracefully and can be a bit bloated with the meticulous details of the fictional world, the games always succeed in getting these core themes across. GENE, MEME, SCENE, SENSE, PEACE, RACE & REVENGE, these are what you should focus on.

The first three were legit. The rest are fluf. Sense? Really? What did you learn in MGS4? It was pure fan service. Peace? Why, because he crammed a Peace logo into almost every shot? Revenge? Why, because they stated the obvious about people thirsting to payback those that did them wrong? But the best is Race... an incomplete bull sh*t chapter about what... black kids? For f...ck sake, if Kojima showed you his dick and said it was a lollipop would you believe him? The man resented being forced to work on these games after MGS3. That's why the progressively got worse.

But you just don't get it and whine about Eli not matching what we thought we knew about Liquid Snake or the Mechs in PW and V seem too advanced or the Phantom Big Boss is out of nowhere and so on. You are blind to what the Metal Gear series is really about and yet take your opinions and treat them as hard facts.

Because I look at all sides of the product. I'm not an idealistic bafoon who blindely accepts what is given to him. It's funny that you used the quote earlier about finding the meaning behind the words. You clear don't. Kojima said Chapter 2 is about Race... you believe him. You attach bull sh*t reasoning to defend it. But the reality is that it's a badly planned and badly put together game. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. I evaluate everything about these games because it's by far my favorite fictional universe. And when sh*t is broken I don't just accept it like a fool.


And that is a surprisingly insightful closing statement from someone as bigoted as you appear to be. I will and you will, too. And that is the beauty of it. But in the end, it is you, who keeps opening up new topics about how bad you think MGSV and PW are, how they would not fit with the "story flow" of the series, and how far the series has fallen, instead of just taking what you like and leaving those games, that you didn't enjoy, behind.


Oh I'm a bigot now? Because I have a brain and refuse to accept bull sh*t from official sources? That's cute. Sorry, but I speak my mind, especially on topics that are important to me. And I can open up as many topics about this as I want. What do you care? At this point I bet I spent far more time on both of those games than you. So you are hardly in the position to tell me what I understand and what I don't.


Additionally, I have posted other topics. But shockingly all you respond to are MGS5 and MPW...

[Cerberus_0408]

Jan 3, 2017 21:44:56 GMT -5 A.G. said:

A series of episodes is still a single story. Much like a TV show, all episodes need to connect to make a point. Seriously, why am I explaining this?! And yes, these games DID teach us. But that stopped at MGS3. Even MGS4, which I liked a lot, was just fan service without a point. MPW and MGS5 had no lessons.

I concur about this. Just because MGS is a 'series of episodes' doesn't mean that the stories are separate. Is SW a series of episodes? Yeah, but it's ALSO a 'single story'.

The first three were legit. The rest are fluf. Sense? Really? What did you learn in MGS4? It was pure fan service. Peace? Why, because he crammed a Peace logo into almost every shot? Revenge? Why, because they stated the obvious about people thirsting to payback those that did them wrong? But the best is Race... an incomplete bull sh*t chapter about what... black kids? For f...ck sake, if Kojima showed you his dick and said it was a lollipop would you believe him? The man resented being forced to work on these games after MGS3. That's why the progressively got worse.

To be fair, the main theme is SENSE, as in someone's understanding of the world that is lost when they die. Or, you could argue that will is the main theme as well. This is prominent throughout the game, from Snake's attempt to understand Naomi's intentions to the misguided attempt of Zero to follow The Boss's will, and JD to follow his. In all of these cases, the individual's original intent and sense of the world is questioned and unclear and seemingly is deliberately left for the audience to answer.