Metal Gear MSX Final Boss Fight

[A.G.]

So it’s been a few years since MGS5 made the change. Do you accept it? When you play MG1 now and get to the final boss fight, do you see Big Boss or Venom Snake?

This was the MGS5 change that I hated the most. More or less the final nail in the coffin of that game’s plot for me. From a logical point of view, the move makes no sense. Big Boss was living a double life of running FoxHound on the side of the Patriots (as cover) but also secretly building Outer Heaven to oppose them. As such, it’s downright stupid to have your lookalike be at Outer Heaven. Literally ANYONE ELSE would be a more logical cover if you wanted your involvement in Outer Heaven to be a secret.

In general it’s very hard for me to see MGS4 and MGS5 exist in the same canon. They offer a very different take on the events between MGS3 and MG1. And for the purposes of this discussion, I just want to focus on events. Not character development. The logical chain of events presented by both games and see where the disconnects are. Eva clearly depicted a war between Zero and Big Boss and their ideologies. But MGS5 showed that Zero wasn’t even a factor since the mid-80s. So below are my general questions about the MGS5 approach:

- Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

[Cerberus_0408]

Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

Misinformation, to me. The same reason why the SSS project was called "Solid Snake Simulation" when it was in fact "Selection for Societal Sanity".

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

I said this before and will repeat it. He probably wanted people to think that he was dead, but secretly he was engineering the crap from behind the scenes.

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

Zero could have coded BB's fingerprint so the Patriot AI only reacts to Big Boss and his fingerprint? Just a thought.

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

I guess you could keep coming up with angry questions and not get valid answers. Kojima probably keeps rewriting and editing his crap as he sees fit. You're justified to have YOUR own version of how events should happen but that doesn't stop Konami from having a different point of view.

[A.G.]

Problem is, all those answers are guesses at best. And you can’t do that with the game that aims to connect the dots.

Misinformation, to me. The same reason why the SSS project was called "Solid Snake Simulation" when it was in fact "Selection for Societal Sanity".

What misinformation? EVA worked with Zero and Big Boss. She saw both sides. Which is why she sided with Big Boss. I’m sorry, but that’s silly to assume that what she says in MGS4 is misinformation. That’s not how writing or storytelling works. The comparison to S3 is very flawed. That was done to build up the actual reveal. EVA telling a false backstory in MGS4 serves no purpose.

I said this before and will repeat it. He probably wanted people to think that he was dead, but secretly he was engineering the crap from behind the scenes.

Doesn’t work. At all. Big Boss already had the perfect cover. He was inside the Patriots ranks and had Outer Heaven. He was controlling both sides. Having his double be associated with Outer Heaven ruins it. Don’t forget, Outer Heaven was the goal, not Zanzibar. Zanzibar was the fallback solution. In fact, just being in charge of Fox Hound would prevent the idea of his double running around in a public view, Diamond Dogs or Outer Heaven. The very concept of a Big Boss double doesn’t work in the 90’s.

Zero could have coded BB's fingerprint so the Patriot AI only reacts to Big Boss and his fingerprint? Just a thought.

Except that Zero was brain dead by the time the AIs were ready. Remember, the brain dead scenario was only brought up in MGS5.

I guess you could keep coming up with angry questions and not get valid answers. Kojima probably keeps rewriting and editing his crap as he sees fit. You're justified to have YOUR own version of how events should happen but that doesn't stop Konami from having a different point of view.

Points of view are irrelevant. I’m talking about facts and logic. Kojima himself stated that MGS5 is going to create retcons. So I would say that you can’t base the canon logic on what he says. Konami? lol. There is no point of view there. They are a business.

Facts are facts. Gray Fox has a different story in MG2 compared to MPO. MGS4 tells a different story of the MGS3-to-MG1 events compared to MPW/MGS5. Venom’s existence and Zero’s brain damage clash with the logical flow of events as outlined by earlier games. These games can’t exist in the same timeline.

[Cerberus_0408]

"Points of view are irrelevant. I’m talking about facts and logic. Kojima himself stated that MGS5 is going to create retcons. So I would say that you can’t base the canon logic on what he says. Konami? lol. There is no point of view there. They are a business.

Facts are facts. Gray Fox has a different story in MG2 compared to MPO. MGS4 tells a different story of the MGS3-to-MG1 events compared to MPW/MGS5. Venom’s existence and Zero’s brain damage clash with the logical flow of events as outlined by earlier games. These games can’t exist in the same timeline."

My point is that your questions keep being posted because you're unsatisfied with how Kojima writes and rewrites stuff. Which is ok. But that's how games make money. They change parts of the story so it's as fluid as water. You can't expect this story to be perfect. And you can see things in a certain light, but Kojima clearly sees it in a differing way.

Enjoy the games for what they are, discard the unacceptable stuff and move on. Some are great because of the stories they have. For me, replay value is what counts. I know people say that "this should not happen because it makes the story screwed up". Then you should only play the things that makes sense and ignore whatever makes a retcon.

[A.G.]

See a new topic I just posted. I feel like it puts things in perspective nicely.

[fgdj2000]

I think in the end, it's pointless to overanalyze these questions/ aspects, since a) Kojima made up the series' story as he went along and b) prioritized telling a compelling story with each entry and getting his theme word (GENE, MEME, SCENE, etc.) across over perfectly fitting each installment into the convoluted continuity... despite him trying sometimes meticulously explain things, almost to an obsessive-compulsive level.

Finally, c) I also think, Kojima himself had lost sight of all the details... and really just wanted to move on from Metal Gear.

[A.G.]

Oh definitely he lost the drive for continuity. I think MGS4 showed just how messy the story got. So with MPW he was less focused about the narrative connecting with other games and just doing something he wanted to do with gameplay.

[Cerberus_0408]

- Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

1. See this video, I have no inconsistencies. www.youtube.com/watch?v=I01GbW5-GDA

2. Big Boss' double in outer heaven: The one who wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret was the double. You were likely talking to the double the entire time in MG1.

3. Big Boss as the key: Zero himself idolized Big Boss. The Top Patriot AI was named JD (John Doe) after Big Boss and it seems likely that JD's thought process was paterned after Big Boss, hence the war echonomy. The Big Boss DNA was the key for sentemental reasons, not to mention that Big Boss' DNA would be hard to get a hold of other than Solidus.

4. Big Boss locked away: After Zero fell into his coma, Sigint was the defacto head of the Patriots. Big Boss was locked away in his coma likely due to his many uprisings (Outer Heaven and Zanzibar). He needed to be THAT Icon. Not to mention that he was almost dead and was not likely to recover from his wounds. He was burned alive and likely missing a lot of his limbs. What Solidus looked like during MGS4 is likely what Big Boss looked like. Maybe he wasn't brain dead, but he wouldn't recover from that and he would not be put down due to Zero's wishes.

[A.G.]

You are asking me to watch a cutscene? Really? lol I’m well familiar with the scene. And my statement still stands. The story given in MGS5 conflicts with that very cutscene. She says there was a war. According to MGS5 there wasn’t one. How are you not seeing this?

I think you are still missing the point about having two Big Bosses during Outer Heaven. Big Boss didn’t want The Patriots to know he was in charge of Outer Heaven. So having his exact duplicate be there is the dumbest move you could make. Would you send your twin to rob a bank if you didn’t want to be associated with the robbery? C’mon!

I know WHY Big Boss was the key to the system. What you can’t answer is HOW. Zero was brain dead long before the system was operational.

You don’t know Sigint was the leader after Zero. That’s not stated anywhere. And if he was the whole thing would’ve ended in MGS1 when Ocelot KILLED him. lol



Sorry, but I’m not seeing any answer to the questions I asked.

[Cerberus_0408]

Ok, how about this. You had some questions in a different thread and I responded to them.


"Big Boss is in charge of Foxhound on the side of the Patriots in 1995 and uses it as cover, right? And he has Venom pose as the leader of Outer Heaven, right? So why have your duplicate be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story."

1. BB in charge of OH: Venom Snake is an insprational figurehead for Outer Heaven's soldiers; his physical appearance being revealed publicly was never an issue, it only coming to light after his defeat.

2. Who was in charge of the Patriots: Zero set in motion the implementation of the AIs early on, so any Patriot subordinates could, I imagine, have carried it to completion, with Donald Anderson spearheading it up until his death.

3. Zero and BB: The enemy is Zero's Patriots, and his AI proxies; the characters merely refer to the man and the system he created interchangably, as his perceived presence in MGS4 has transcended his physical being.

4. MSF and DD before OH: Like you said, MSF and Diamond Dogs = Outer Heaven. In other words, MSF is Outer Heaven. Diamonds Dogs IS also Outer Heaven. Which is not merely a location - it's more of an ideology. There's also NO evidence whatsoever, that the South African fortress was lesser in any respect . But since the game was an 8-bit in graphics, that was probably the way that we perceived it to be.

[A.G.]

1. BB in charge of OH: Venom Snake is an insprational figurehead for Outer Heaven's soldiers; his physical appearance being revealed publicly was never an issue, it only coming to light after his defeat.

2. Who was in charge of the Patriots: Zero set in motion the implementation of the AIs early on, so any Patriot subordinates could, I imagine, have carried it to completion, with Donald Anderson spearheading it up until his death.

3. Zero and BB: The enemy is Zero's Patriots, and his AI proxies; the characters merely refer to the man and the system he created interchangably, as his perceived presence in MGS4 has transcended his physical being.

4. MSF and DD before OH: Like you said, MSF and Diamond Dogs = Outer Heaven. In other words, MSF is Outer Heaven. Diamonds Dogs IS also Outer Heaven. Which is not merely a location - it's more of an ideology. There's also NO evidence whatsoever, that the South African fortress was lesser in any respect . But since the game was an 8-bit in graphics, that was probably the way that we perceived it to be.

1. That doesn’t make sense. A military state is being developed in Africa with a nuclear tank and the goal to oppose The Patriots, and the guy that’s in charge looks the same as the head of FoxHound. And so they have Foxhound investigate this?! You don’t see that as an issue? Really? C’mon!

2. OK, Sigint finished the AIs. And let’s say he carried out Zero’s direction to make Big Boss the key to the system (even though this is never stated). Then why couldn’t Ocelot and Eva end the Patriots in 2005 and free Big Boss? Ocelot killed Sigint. Fox killed Paramedic. Zero is brain dead. Patriots AI isn’t really in control until after 2007. So... who is running all this? lol. How are you not seeing this as an issue? The ONLY way the plot of MGS4 works is if the parasite element and the brain dead state from MGS5 didn’t happen. Zero had to actively be running things until at least the early 2000s for the story to work.

3. Not sure what you mean by this. My point is that the only way MGS4 works is if there was a war between Zero and Big Boss. And MGS5 says there wasn’t one. So I don’t see how these two games can be in the same timeline.

4. Dude, that’s the point! lol. This is why having MSF and Diamond Dogs ruins Outer Heaven in MG1. It also ties into point number 1. Patriots know that Big Boss ran MSF and built a Metal Gear. Big Boss, through Venom, was also the face of Diamond Dogs. So why would they think anyone but Big Boss is running Outer Heaven? He would be the first and only suspect, especially when his double is actually there! lol. I really can’t believe you are arguing this. It’s beyond broken logic.