When is it okay to deny heroes a happy end?

[fgdj2000]

Hey,

So, The Last of Us Part II is out and as you may or may not know,

MILD SPOILERS
a major character from the first game is unceremoniously killed off, therefore fueling the other characters' motivation in the story.
SPOILERS END

People were really furious about this. However, while you could argue the way that happened was sloppy, I think the move itself felt natural for me in where the first game left off and what the story of this game is going to be. Then I was reminded about the controversy of Luke Skywalker in TLJ, many hated it, many loved it. On the other hand a film like Logan is generally praised, even though Logan himself died and also didn't really have a happy ending. 

Which made me ask the question of when is it okay to lead our heroes to a brutal end?

I think in the case of Logan - we never really saw a truly happily ever after happen for the guy and he ended up sacrificing himself for what mattered, saving lives, and succeeded in defeating the "bad guys". 

While Luke also sacrificed himself, bought the Resistance time, fueled his legend to rally people to the cause of the Resistance and planted a seed for Kylo Ren's redemption, without harming a single soul - and arguably went out in the most awesome way possible - I guess many people did envision a happy end for him, being a Jedi Grand Master, rebuilding the order and maybe even having a family (as was depicted in the now-Legends fiction). The problem wasn't the way he sacrificed himself, but everything before that - he made a huge mistake, accidentally created Kylo Ren, then hid away in shame until he was found by Rey. His story was turned from success to failure to ultimately redemption. Personally, I find it fitting. I thought he had a great character arc in TLJ, but I understand people being upset. 

But seriously, who does truly have a happy end? We all make mistakes, grow old and no matter how much we achieve, we all must eventually pass on. TO me, a hero who dies and doesn't have the happily ever after always feels more real and even more relatable, if it's done right.

[A.G.]

Hard topic for me. I saw the leaks, and I cancelled my preorder. Over the weekend I watched the story on YouTube. 100% happy that I cancelled my preorder as I will not give them my money for something this bad. The game and the choices they made are DISGUSTING! It’s sad when THIS is what gaming story has to offer in 2020. A sh*t age to live in.

In regards the topic, I don’t know if a happy end is a must. I think a dignified end is far more crucial. Luke and Logan died, but it was a sacrifice for those they loved. Granted the Luke sacrifice was fairly dumb. But still. Solid Snake got to walk away, and I’m grateful for that.

There was never any question that Joel should die in the sequel. None. But it’s how you do it. And what does it offer the overall story. Last of Us 2 plot is trash. They nullified the brilliance of the first game by killing Joel and demonized Ellie for no payoff! Abby is never going to be accepted! Never! Nobody gives a crap about her side of the story. I played as Joel in the first game. I killed the surgeon to save Ellie. And I will do it EVERY TIME with no hesitation! You bond with Joel and Ellie. New characters can’t change that. As such, killing Joel should be done in a respectful way that pulls you closer to the characters, not just do a sh*t revenge plot.

I had a Phantom Pain feel from this game and I’m glad I voted with my wallet this time.

[A.G.]

It’s this! 100% agree.

[fgdj2000]

I think this guy had an interesting take on TLOU2. Again, I don't have a problem with Joel's death or how it came to be, because it has meaning in the story and also because he isn't a positive role model like Luke Skywalker. Considering how whiny everybody is about Joel's death (in combination with how whiney they were in other similar instances) I get the sense, people don't know how storytelling works. The storyteller shouldn't be obligated to what the audience wants, but what the story needs. 

[A.G.]

The problem isn’t Joel’s death. It’s the HOW. And most reviews note this. The game doesn’t have a point of view and therefore fails to achieve an emotional connection with the player. Which is why everyone is pissed. The first game did exactly that so masterfully. The circumstances behind Joel’s death are pure Game of Thrones season 8. It’s all done for shock value with no payoff. “But Joel’s death sets up Ellie’s revenge!” So? Still could do it better. The game takes two characters we love and kills one of them in a very unpleasant way and then demonizes the other. Ellie is dull, dark and very out of character. Sure, she is emotionally scared. BUT WHY TELL THAT STORY?! Nobody wanted that! And it’s clear by the backlash this game got.

The game fails for two main reasons. First, you can’t connect with the protagonists. This game tries desperately to get you to build a bond with Abby and it fails miserably to do so. People can’t accept her. And Ellie is demonized beyond recognition. I refuse to play as Abby to beat Ellie to a bloody pulp. I also refuse to watch Ellie go to such out of character extremes to push an unnecessary plot. A plot that should not exist. The second reason is payoff. Even a dark story needs it to work. Here we have none. And again, all for the sake of pushing a story that didn’t need to be told. Ellie loses everything. Period. Roll credits. We do all that and just lose everything. Great story.

One other side note. They forgot that you, the player, are controlling Joel in the first game. We kill Abby’s dad. And I would do it each time with no hesitation. Regardless of the moral dilemma we always want to save Ellie. So Abby’s revenge motivation falls flat as the player does not care about her, her trauma or her father. Like Star Wars, right? Tons of people on those Death Stars, but 0 reason to change my mind about blowing them up!

I hate modern storytelling! Subverting expectations and shocking the audience is the new norm. Well, I didn’t buy this game. And I won’t be supporting projects that look like they are traveling this path.

[Cerberus_0408]

In terms of heroes having a bad ending, it happens in movies. Bad guys win. At least sometimes.

Case in point, Nolan's Batman trilogy (The Dark Knight to be specific). And Infinity War. I know the Avengers had a happy ending eventually but until then Thanos had won.

Also in Spiderman 3 Flint Marko survives. Granted, you can't really kill a man made of sand.