Metal Gear replay schedule

[Cerberus_0408]

My point is, that MPW and MGSV connects the dods here and reestablishes the earlier portrayal; in other words, restores continuity.

It might seem to repair some issues, but PW's overall plot should be looked at as a written work of literature. MPW is a monkeyranch in the gears. no pun intended. lol When you have NUMEROUS parts to a story, one can't work against the others. MPW works against MG1. That's my point.

Well, actually both are right. In MGS4 they at times say that Outer Heaven was coup d'etat against Zero and that Big Boss also misinterpreted The Boss' will (strongly hinting at Outer Heaven being an attempted realization of The Boss' will. In any case, my point is, that an earlier game established one thing (Big Boss as a maniac, who sees intrinsic value in war and is willing to use anyone) while a later game established something else (the seemingly noble cause of opposing Zero and creating a world, that The Boss would have approved of), which clearly contradicts the earlier game.

Big Boss's intention was to create a world of anarchy, where war never ends - a utopia of sorts for soldiers, where they would always be a commodity, and would be free to fight for themselves not nations or political ideologies. Remember, Liquid Ocelot in MGS4 gives an accurate description of Outer Heaven when he dies: "Fire will spread across the world..it will be like the wild west all over again....the people will fight and through battle they will no the fullness of life....our fathers will, his Outer Heaven, is complete."

As an aside: Venom Snake actually was much more like The Boss: he was calm, pacifistic, wanted to avoid unneccessary bloodshed, arbitrated conflicts among his men. This is why he comes across as so silent and bland, because - even with Big Boss' memories - he is a very different person. And I think the revelation at the end of Mission 46 to him is, what will push Venom Snake over the edge. I think the Outer Heaven uprising might actually be an uprising by Venom Snake against Big Boss. But it is purposefully shrouded in mystery and wasn't explained in order to underline the tragedy of Venom Snake: He was misused by Big Boss and ultimately his existence was completely erased, swallowed by the legend of Big Boss: we never know who he was before that helicopter crash and we don't even know, how his story truly ended.

Can you explain how this ties in to your previous post?

[fgdj2000]

It might seem to repair some issues, but PW's overall plot should be looked at as a written work of literature. MPW is a monkeyranch in the gears. no pun intended. lol When you have NUMEROUS parts to a story, one can't work against the others. MPW works against MG1. That's my point.

Huh? I don't understand the bit about literature. I don't think the various parts work against one another. Actually, in Kojima's games more than any other series all the parts work towards one theme per game. So, each game is a self-contained piece, which - even if it also plays a role in the larger tapestry of the Metal Gear series - is first and foremost dedicated to being a complete experience in its own right.

Big Boss's intention was to create a world of anarchy, where war never ends - a utopia of sorts for soldiers, where they would always be a commodity, and would be free to fight for themselves not nations or political ideologies. Remember, Liquid Ocelot in MGS4 gives an accurate description of Outer Heaven when he dies: "Fire will spread across the world..it will be like the wild west all over again....the people will fight and through battle they will no the fullness of life....our fathers will, his Outer Heaven, is complete."

Exactly, what I'm saying. He views war as something inherently good.

As an aside: Venom Snake actually was much more like The Boss: he was calm, pacifistic, wanted to avoid unneccessary bloodshed, arbitrated conflicts among his men. This is why he comes across as so silent and bland, because - even with Big Boss' memories - he is a very different person. And I think the revelation at the end of Mission 46 to him is, what will push Venom Snake over the edge. I think the Outer Heaven uprising might actually be an uprising by Venom Snake against Big Boss. But it is purposefully shrouded in mystery and wasn't explained in order to underline the tragedy of Venom Snake: He was misused by Big Boss and ultimately his existence was completely erased, swallowed by the legend of Big Boss: we never know who he was before that helicopter crash and we don't even know, how his story truly ended.

Can you explain how this ties in to your previous post?

That was really more of a side-note with which I wanted to showcase the secret genius of Venom Snake's supposedly bland writing. Just to show how awful Big Boss was in ripping this poor dude of his identity. I am conviced that dispite its problems MGSV will be much more appreciated a few years down the line, just like MGS2 was.

[Cerberus_0408]

Huh? I don't understand the bit about literature. I don't think the various parts work against one another. Actually, in Kojima's games more than any other series all the parts work towards one theme per game. So, each game is a self-contained piece, which - even if it also plays a role in the larger tapestry of the Metal Gear series - is first and foremost dedicated to being a complete experience in its own right.

Hmmm...I'd like to illustrate a timeline to show my point.

"TIMELINE AFTER 2004

1964: Big Boss is born from Operation Snake eater, patriotic soldier that was left with a trauma of government betreyal and the mission to kill his mentor. Idea of a bipedal tank is concieved.

1995: Big Boss leads a mission to stop the military state of Outer Heaven that became a threat after developing a bipedal tank called Metal Gear with nuclear launch capabilities. Big Boss turns out to be the leader of Outer Heaven."



TIMELINE AS OF 2010

"1964: Big Boss is born from Operation Snake eater, patriotic soldier that was left with a trauma of government betreyal and the mission to kill his mentor. Idea of a bipedal tank is concieved.

1970: Big Boss forms Outer Heaven and stops the CIA-developed Metal Gear tank.

1974: Big Boss forms his own army, destroys another CIA-developed Metal Gear tank, creates his own Metal Gear, and becomes a nuclear power in the form of Outer Heaven.

1995: Big Boss leads a mission to stop the military state of Outer Heaven that became a threat after developing a bipedal tank called Metal Gear with nuclear launch capabilities. Big Boss turns out to be the leader of Outer Heaven."

I'm sorry, but the current timeline makes little sense. From the flow created from game to game I'm not seeing a sound plot. The shock value of MG1 is gone. The plot validity of the 1995 mission is gone. All MPW did was ruin the central point of the series! We have to remember that MG2, MGS, MGS2, and MGS4 are HEAVILY based on the importance of the Outer Heaven mission. And now that mission means nothing!

[fgdj2000]

The Flow from game to game/ the shock value of MG1:
As I said before, the games aren't meant to be played in that order. Since you compared MGS to literature, let me jump onto that analogy. If MGS series is like The Lord of the Rings, than MPW (and MGSV) are like the Appendices or maybe even The Silmarillion. You don't read the appendices concurrently with The Hobbit or before both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but you read them after you finished the main story. The appendices give you more backstory and go a bit more into detail on some aspects that the main story just skipped over. Just like those, MPW and MGSV are meant to fill in the details after MGS4 gave us the ending.

The central point of the series: I think you never got the central point of the series. At its core, MGS is about finding your own meaning in life and passing that on as good as you can and not just accept what other people tell you and let that shape your life. But on the Outer Heaven thing: don't worry, it still is a central piece of the series! Three prequels (MGS3, MPW, MSV) detail the inception and creation of Outer Heaven (four if you count MPO), two games show the downfall of Outer Heaven (MG1 and MG2) and three more games deal with the legacy of Outer Heaven (MGS1, MGS2, MGS4). So, it's importance in the storyline is still pretty much retained.

[Cerberus_0408]

Three prequels (MGS3, MPW, MSV) detail the inception and creation of Outer Heaven (four if you count MPO), two games show the downfall of Outer Heaven (MG1 and MG2) and three more games deal with the legacy of Outer Heaven (MGS1, MGS2, MGS4). So, it's importance in the storyline is still pretty much retained.

Then, would you consider MPO canon or not? Because that and PW don't fit into the same canon, simple. They contradict each other. You have to choose ONE OF THEM, and judging by the fact that PW COMPLETELY disregards MPO, and that Kojima has gone out of his way to disown it, it's pretty obvious which one we should select. PW is a direct sequel to MGS3, just like MPO. It replaces MPO. I mean MPO is still 'technically' canon but who gives a damn about this technicality when the series' creator acts like MPO never happened. There can't possibly be TWO direct sequels to MGS3 in the same canon, it just creates a mess. As Kojima tells us to with Miller's line: "Finally we can leave all that crap in San Heronymo behind", we should ignore MPO.

[fgdj2000]

Well, I think they could still fit into the same canon with some hickups. You have some plot holes like the money problems they have after Big Boss got a fortune from Gene.

That being said, I don't consider MPO canon. I just stick to the main series. And I also think that MPW handled Big Boss' characterization much better than MPO, as I said before. MPO's story pretty much retreads plot points from Metal Gear Solid (Big Boss has to go against his former unit, which has gone rogue and is made up of strangely superpowered freaks, and their leader has a genetic connection to The Boss - in effect making him her son and Naked Snakes brother; Snake also meats Frank Jaeger, whom he knew from earlier and who because of Snake's actions was experimented on and became a super-powered ninja with no memory at first of who he was, etc.), whereas MPW did its own thing.

I also don't consider Metal Gear Rising canon, even though unlike MPO that game had actually decent gameplay and because of it I enjoyed myself quite a bit.

[Cerberus_0408]

That being said, I don't consider MPO canon. I just stick to the main series

Generally speaking, I would do the same and ignore the non-numbered games. However, PW was still damn fun despite the story taking a huge piss on the trilogy, as I mentioned MANY times already.

But the truth is, MPW confirms MPO is indeed canon. "We can finally put that crap at San Hyranymo behind us"...

I also don't consider Metal Gear Rising canon, even though unlike MPO that game had actually decent gameplay and because of it I enjoyed myself quite a bit.

Truth be told, neither do I.

[fgdj2000]

Well, no it doesn't. Kaz' short line is definitely a tongue-in-cheek dismissal of MPO and to anyone who sees this as a straight confirmation that MPO is canon without a doubt (I'm not talking about you, but about blind MPO fanboys), I say this: By that logic Metal Gear: Ghost Babelis also canon. The Five Seven from Ghost Babel can be equipped in MGS4 and that game specifically states that Snake used it on that mission. So if Millers statement about San Hieronymo makes MPO foolproofly canon, so does the Five Seven do that for Ghost Babel. And we all know how canon Ghost Babel is. Considering the various references to Jehuty and ZOE as well as the Solar Gun from the Boktai series (in MGS4), this technically also confirms those games as taking place within the MGS Universe.

And that's all I have to say about that. :-)

[Cerberus_0408]

Y'know, I wish I could agree with you. I really wish I could. And I HATE PO even more than PW, probably as much as the next MGS fanboy. But the FACT is that MPO is STILL canon. It was shown in MGS4. It was in the Database. And most recently, in the timeline shown at E3. No matter how much you or I hate it, it's still canon. So we can't ignore/ disregard or whatever it, no matter how much we try. lmfao

Don't believe me? PO and PW ARE in the same timeline. Regardless of what we're hardwired to believe. Look at the pics of the Konami E3 booth. It shows MPO in the same timeline. And as for the contradictions, you don't have to tell me. They're all in the Expanded Universe section of the site.

[fgdj2000]

This is soo tiresome.

It was shown in MGS4.

Some random stills from Ashley Woods artwork hardly qualify here.

It was in the Database.

A Database, that was full of contradictions and is now outdated (8 years later!)

And most recently, in the timeline shown at E3. No matter how much you or I hate it, it's still canon.

Which one? I haven't seen it in any official timeline since like 2010. In fact MGSV's in-game timeline doesn't mention anything about a San Hieronymo Takeover, when it mentions every other game!

So we can't ignore/ disregard or whatever it, no matter how much we try. lmfao

Why not? The developer does, so why shouldn't we?

Don't believe me? PO and PW ARE in the same timeline. Regardless of what we think. Look at the pics of the Konami E3 booth. It shows MPO in the same timeline. As for the contradictions, you don't have to tell me. They're all in the Expanded Universe section of the site.

Look, maybe when Konami someday these days releases a new timeline which depicts MPO and maybe even Rising as part of the timeline, then yes, it will be proven, that MPO indeed is now officially canon. It used to be from a brief period between 2006 and 2010. However, even then, for me, Kojima's games will always form this really interesting 28-year saga. No matter what Konami will add or subtract, this will stand for me. My own interpretation of the truth, just as these games teach us. And for A.G. and others, they will disregard anything that came after MGS4. Which is fine. So find your own version of the canon and enjoy it.

[Cerberus_0408]

I can't help but wonder then...

Why would MPO STILL be considered canon?

This is a MGS swag handed out at TGS 09. As you can see, it's a timeline. Notice MPO on the top right. Irrefutable evidence that it's canon. Despite whatever people who hate it claim.

[A.G.]

Guys, let it go! Take it from someone who fought the canon war for a decade. It's not worth it nor does it matter. Take a lesson from MGS2, decide what to believe and decide for yourself. Take what is important to you from the series. I don't care what is considered canon. Besides, official canon has been a joke for some time.

I took what I waned from the series and forgot about the rest. I suggest you do the same.

[Cerberus_0408]

Yeah my contention is:

Personally MPO is either part of MGS3 or is expanded universe. It is NOT a new chapter!

Evidence -

a) Title. It is a “Solid” titled that is NOT numbered. It is released after MGS3 and yet Guns of the Patriots still retains the MGS4 title. That’s a clear indication of a spin-off or an addition to Snake Eater.

b) Gameplay. The game engine is taken out of MGS3. Character appearances, moves, and even in some cases outfits are taken directly out of Snake Eater. Snake even wears his MGS3 outfit at the start of the game. This is identical to what we see in MGS2 where the Tanker and the Plant can be seen done in the same way.

c) Story. The game does have a new story that adds to the canon plot, but that doesn’t mean that it is a separate chapter from MGS3. In MGS2 the two PLOT INSTALLMENTS are separated by 2 years. Even though the game does offer 2 installment into the canon plot, it is still viewed as one game. In addition, MGS VR Missions is proven by MGS2 to be a part of the canon plot since it shows Raiden’s VR Training. Yet VR Missions is listed as merely part of Metal Gear Solid and not a new chapter in the canon. There is no reason to think of MPO to be any different.

d) Official word. Even though in most cases the only official word on this issue is that MPO is canon, that does not dispute that it is part of MGS3. The game was created as canon as part of a last-minute decision made after the failure of the Acid titles. Further more, the MG Saga DVD does clearly state that Metal Gear series consists of “Six groundbreaking games and a series of spinoffs”. This documentary was released in March 2006, same year as MPO. So it’s not like they didn’t know that it is being released. Hell, we knew that a canon MGS was being made for the PSP back in late 2005.

Summary -

In the Metal Gear series not only does the story evolve, but so does the gameplay. Every chapter has done its part to better every aspect of gameplay from the previous. MPO can't be seen as such. It didn't really further anything from MGS3. I mean the Comrade system is original. But it wasn't in MGS4. It uses MGS3 gameplay and graphics, it has an un-numbered title, and is very small scale given it's release time in the series. As such, MPO is really part of MGS3 and/or expanded universe, not Chapter 6.

[fgdj2000]

a.G.: I was trying to tell that our friend, Cerberus, in a way.

@cerberus: That timeline is 7 years old and two major games are missing there, not to mention MGSV. Outdated. Plain and simple. As for your lengthy list of evidence: most of it is either circumstential (Metal Gear Solid Mobile was also a Solid-title, had a new storyline, so is that canon, too?), outdated (official word from 2006-2010 and that one misquoted interview with Kojima last year) or outright false (Game Engine: With MGS2 it was completely different, since the Tanker and Plant chapters are part of the same game!). But you may think what you want. MPO is a spin-off and used to be a part of the main series, but has since been disowned by Kojima, but this could be reverted since he is no longer in charge. TO me, it certainly is important in that it pioneered the base-building and recruitment mechanic that were later seen in MPW and MGSV, but other than that, I don't consider it part of the canon.

[Cerberus_0408]

OK well, I guess this argument is pointless. Whether or not MPO is canon is debatable since one could believe it is but another might not share that view.

But all that said, let me ask you to read on BEFORE ignoring the topic. There is a significant distinction between the way Snake/BB looks in MPO's gameplay and the comic cutscenes. If you notice, in the cutscenes he is drawn to look older, with a longer and scruffier beard. Yet in the gameplay he has the same, neat and short beard he sports in MGS3. Naturally that's due to them using the same character model. And when the game starts, Snake is wearing his exact outfit from Snake Eater. The second occasion that character models did not change from one plotline to the next is in MGS2, between Tanker and Big Shell. Snake looks the same in both. More undeniable proof that Portable Ops IS part of MGS3.

Remember Snake Tales in Substance? Well, PO can be seen as something along those lines, just part of the canon.

Furthermore, Kojima has PERSONALLY STATED that MPO happens after MGS3 but before MG1! I have no links, but have read about it.