Outer Heaven and FOXHOUND

[A.G.]

This is my biggest issue with the missing link games. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see how it works with the new games. Maybe someone can clarify it.

Original Story
Big Boss is torn at the end of MGS3. When he splits away from the Patriots in the 1970's he drifts around the world and ends up secretly building a private military company called Outer Heaven as his interpretation of The Boss' will. He returns to the states in the early 90's and resumes control of FOXHOUND while secretly finishing Outer Heaven and developing a Metal Gear. In 1995 he is defeated by Solid Snake after being revealed as the leader of Outer Heaven.

New Story
After Big Boss leaves the Patriots he starts his private military company MSF and develops a Metal Gear in 1974 openly opposing Zero and even referring to MSF as Outer Heaven. In 1975 he falls into a coma waking up in 1984 with his body double Venom taking his place. Big Boss changes his face and goes to start Outer Heaven while Venom poses as Big Boss for the world.

So where I struggle with the new plot is how does Big Boss do the rest of the things that lead up to MG1? How can he build Outer Heaven when in the eyes of the world he is not Big Boss. He is just some guy. How does he return to US and take control of FoxHound? After all, he is not Big Boss. And even if he changed his face back you still have Venom in Outer Heaven. Venom as a Big Boss body double doesn't explain MG1, it convoluted it. Or am I missing something?

[fgdj2000]

I think what you are missing, is that he didn't necessarily want to oppose Zero when he created MSF/ Outer Heaven. He just didn't agree with Zero, felt betrayed by the Les Enfants Terrible project and just left or "broke up" with Zero if you will. He just wanted to do his own thing. Zero in turn wanted to rejoin with Big Boss as seen in PW. However, MSF then gets destroyed by Skull Face who at this point had clearly gone rogue.
Ultimately, while Big Boss and Zero didn't agree, they still shared respect for one another and it was actually Zero who saved Big Boss' life. Like Professor X and Magneto.

The rest gets admittedly a bit convoluted. Venom Snake leads Diamond Dogs as a more high profile organisation while Big Boss sets up the real Outer Heaven and ultimately absorbs Diamond Dogs and appoints Venom Snake to lead Outer Heaven, while the real Big Boss created Fox-Hound in the U.S. to make sure they don't learn too much about Outer Heaven. Keep in mind that the general public and the Patriots themselves probably didn't know that "Big Boss" was the leader of Diamond Dogs and then Outer Heaven, only some legendary mercenary.
There are also some issues with how EVA and Ocelot make some remarks about Outer Heaven being Big Boss' coup d'etat against Zero, but I think, EVA didn't know the full picture and Ocelot was still under his fake personality Liequid Ocelot and thinking he was Liquid Snake.
That's how I gather it. But as you said before, each game was meant to be the last and each game introduces new retcons and Kojima couldnt keep track of everything in the end.

[A.G.]

I think what you are missing, is that he didn't necessarily want to oppose Zero when he created MSF/ Outer Heaven. He just didn't agree with Zero, felt betrayed by the Les Enfants Terrible project and just left or "broke up" with Zero if you will. He just wanted to do his own thing. Zero in turn wanted to rejoin with Big Boss as seen in PW. However, MSF then gets destroyed by Skull Face who at this point had clearly gone rogue.
Ultimately, while Big Boss and Zero didn't agree, they still shared respect for one another and it was actually Zero who saved Big Boss' life. Like Professor X and Magneto.

No I got that part, even as far back as MGS4. Eva explained exactly that. And the notion that a dead Big Boss would not only be brought back and revived after Zanzibar but made the key to the Patriots system is ultimate proof of that relationship. Which in turn raises more issues with MGS5. Nobody but Zero would do something like that. But by late 70's he was already out of action. So that whole parasite attack just doesn't fit.

The rest gets admittedly a bit convoluted. Venom Snake leads Diamond Dogs as a more high profile organisation while Big Boss sets up the real Outer Heaven and ultimately absorbs Diamond Dogs and appoints Venom Snake to lead Outer Heaven, while the real Big Boss created Fox-Hound in the U.S. to make sure they don't learn too much about Outer Heaven. Keep in mind that the general public and the Patriots themselves probably didn't know that "Big Boss" was the leader of Diamond Dogs and then Outer Heaven, only some legendary mercenary.

A few issues here. First, how can he build Outer Heaven when it's clearly a competitor to Diamond Dogs? He can't use the name or face of Big Boss. Second, Diamond Dogs had clients all over the world and everyone knew it was Bkg Boss leading them. Hell, the soldiers in Afghanistan can be heard talking about Big Boss being there. So everyone knew, which would be the point of a deception like that. Third, FoxHound was established in 1971. But after knowing that Big Boss built MSF and Diamond Dogs why would the Patriots welcome him back? And let him lead missions against Outer Heaven? He would be the prime suspect. Also, with Zero gone by that point why would they let him back at all, and even make him the key to the system? The whole thing just got needlessly convoluted and it just doesn't make sense anymore.

There are also some issues with how EVA and Ocelot make some remarks about Outer Heaven being Big Boss' coup d'etat against Zero, but I think, EVA didn't know the full picture and Ocelot was still under his fake personality Liequid Ocelot and thinking he was Liquid Snake.
That's how I gather it. But as you said before, each game was meant to be the last and each game introduces new retcons and Kojima couldnt keep track of everything in the end.

I tend to trust the story Eva gave us in MGS4. She was a Patriot and right in the middle of it all. She has credibility. And the coup d'etat against Zero doesn't mean an actual war. But as she stated a war of ideologies. The Patriot system was Zero's vision. Outer Heaven was Big Boss'. I think the irony of the series is that both ideas just merged. The Patriot system found a way to control the world by controlling war, the very thing Big Boss was trying to do. War became a recurring business, much like Big Boss's speech at the end of MG2.

Again, my whole point here is that what we got in MPW and MGS5 just complicated things by adding twists that were never needed.

[fgdj2000]

Let me just preface this by concuring with you that the series has become needlessly convoluted. Which is a process that started at least in MGS4, maybe even in MGS2. I still think most of it makes sense, considering each new game added so much new "lore".

Zero reviving Big Boss in 1999: I believe Donald Anderson was left in charge of The Patriots. Maybe, he did it, because he had a "hmmm, this is what Zero would have wanted..." moment. But you're right, there is an issue here, but I'd have to replay the games.

Outer Heaven and Diamond Dogs: The point of Outer Heaven was that it was secretive. It also wasn't just another PM, it was meant to be a nation. Big Boss build it over the course of a decade. It's not like MSF and DD which expanded rapidly over the course of a few months. It isn't until 1995 that anyone really notices it. Diamond Dogs on the other hand was a high profile PM, that for all we know wasn't even a nuclear power. TO the outside world it probably looked like it got disbanded or destroyed and Big Boss, as a high class mercenary, went to the US and (re-)established a special forces unit (when in reality, DD got absorbed by OH and the real Big Boss swapped with Venom Snake). Keep in mind, he was working for the United States and not directly for the Patriots. They probably didn't consider him a threat, either. The destruction of MSF was because of Skull Face, not because of Zero or the Patriots. The threat for Big Boss' life was from Skull Face and "the times" (e.g. the superpowers).

EVA and her knowledge: We don't know when EVA left the Patriots/ Cipher. Maybe it was shortly after the Les Enfants Terrible project. In addition, Zero kept his own location super secret and became extremely paranoid. It seems reasonable to me that EVA would be left out, since she was Big Boss' former lover and possibly didn't have a real function among the Patriots.

But, in the end, you're right. The series got too complicated and too convoluted for its own good.

[A.G.]

I wish they used the missing links to tell us the info we needed instead of coming up with new things that are mostly irrelivant, especially when these new explanations are in need of further explanations.