Story of Big Boss

[A.G.]

I was exaplaing the Big Boss story to my wife and thought ghtnit would be interesting to compare simplified version of the two timelines. Timeline 1 is based on story as of MGS4. Timeline 2 includes MPW and MGSV.

Timeline 1
1964 - Jack kills his mentor The Boss as part of a CIA mission. He becomes Big Boss and is torn between following his own ideals and being a loyal soldier.
1970 - Big Boss becomes part of the Patriots though his views differ from Zero.
1972 - Big Boss leaves the Patriots after finding out he was cloned, drifting around the world to build his own mercenary company to oppose Zero’s views.
1980’s - Big Boss builds Outer Heaven as his main base in Africa.
1990’s - Big Boss returns to US and rejoins Zero as the commander of Foxhound, usining it as cover for his Outer Heaven plans.
1995 - Outer Heaven is revealed to be a threat and Big Boss leads missions to investigate, purposely sabotaging them. Big Boss is revealed as leader of Outer Heaven.

It just works. Now you throw the other two games in and you got contradictions as to why Big Boss left and how he came back in the 90’s. Again, using a body double doesn’t fix things at all. It would be far more logical if the leader of Outer Heaven didn’t look like Big Boss.

Timeline 2
1964 - Jack kills his mentor The Boss as part of a CIA mission. He becomes Big Boss and is torn between following his own ideals and being a loyal soldier.
1970 - Big Boss becomes part of the Patriots though his views differ from Zero and later leaves.
1974 - Big Boss sets up MSF and builds it into a nuclear power. Zero has spies in his organization.
1975 - MSF is destroyed and Big Boss falls into a coma.
1975-84 - Venom Snake is created through hypnotherapy to be Big Boss double and Zero becomes disabled due to parasite attack.
1984 - Venom and Big Boss wake up. Venom develops Diamond Dogs into a large mercenary company mascirading as Big Boss. Big Boss goes off to build Outer Heaven.
1990’s - Big Boss returns to US as the commander of Foxhound, usining it as cover for his Outer Heaven plans. Venom is placed in Outer Heaven.
1995 - Outer Heaven is revealed to be a threat and Big Boss leads missions to investigate, purposely sabotaging them. Big Boss is revealed as leader of Outer Heaven. Venom dies in Outer Heaven as cover for Big Boss.

Gets a lot more convoluted. Why reveal Venom who looks just like you as the leader of Outer Heaven? Why give up your Foxhound position at all? In timeline 1 it was logical, it was Big Boss on the radio and in the final fight. He was at Outer Heaven all along. In Timeline 2 he wasn’t. Why have Venom there who looks just Iike you and blow your cover? It makes the MG1 final fight far less iconic (I mean... Solid Snake vs Big Boss or Solid Snake vs brainwashed medic?) and it actually makes things more confusing. If Venom wasn’t there Schneider or that last prisoner would not have found out that it’s Big Boss.

I know those games were meant to explain Big Boss’ turn to evil. But it’s done in such a messy way that the overall flow of the story is hindered. Plus it retcons what is explained in MGS4. I guess that’s the main reason I prefer the original timeline.

[Cerberus_0408]

Timeline 1
1964 - Jack kills his mentor The Boss as part of a CIA mission. He becomes Big Boss and is torn between following his own ideals and being a loyal soldier.
1970 - Big Boss becomes part of the Patriots though his views differ from Zero.
1972 - Big Boss leaves the Patriots after finding out he was cloned, drifting around the world to build his own mercenary company to oppose Zero’s views.
1980’s - Big Boss builds Outer Heaven as his main base in Africa.
1990’s - Big Boss returns to US and rejoins Zero as the commander of Foxhound, usining it as cover for his Outer Heaven plans.
1995 - Outer Heaven is revealed to be a threat and Big Boss leads missions to investigate, purposely sabotaging them. Big Boss is revealed as leader of Outer Heaven.

It just works. Now you throw the other two games in and you got contradictions as to why Big Boss left and how he came back in the 90’s. Again, using a body double doesn’t fix things at all. It would be far more logical if the leader of Outer Heaven didn’t look like Big Boss.

Timeline 2
1964 - Jack kills his mentor The Boss as part of a CIA mission. He becomes Big Boss and is torn between following his own ideals and being a loyal soldier.
1970 - Big Boss becomes part of the Patriots though his views differ from Zero and later leaves.
1974 - Big Boss sets up MSF and builds it into a nuclear power. Zero has spies in his organization.
1975 - MSF is destroyed and Big Boss falls into a coma.
1975-84 - Venom Snake is created through hypnotherapy to be Big Boss double and Zero becomes disabled due to parasite attack.
1984 - Venom and Big Boss wake up. Venom develops Diamond Dogs into a large mercenary company mascirading as Big Boss. Big Boss goes off to build Outer Heaven.
1990’s - Big Boss returns to US as the commander of Foxhound, usining it as cover for his Outer Heaven plans. Venom is placed in Outer Heaven.
1995 - Outer Heaven is revealed to be a threat and Big Boss leads missions to investigate, purposely sabotaging them. Big Boss is revealed as leader of Outer Heaven. Venom dies in Outer Heaven as cover for Big Boss.

Well, you did bring this up before. To quote you..

"MGS3 > MG1
Big Boss kills The Boss, learns the truth, dicides to create a world where soldiers would always be needed, builds Outer Heaven in secret while running Fox Hound to oppose Zero's control on the world, is stopped by his clone who was created by Zero as insurance.

MGS3 > MPW > MGS5 > MG1
Big Boss kills The Boss, learns the truth, sets up a private military company becoming a gun for hire that eventually turns nuclear, loses it, falls in a coma, wakes up and uses a body double (stripping away his will and identity) to run a new military company while he builds yet another in secret, returns to run Fox Hound somehow even though he is at war with Zero, sacrifices his body double at Outer Heaven while building a fourth military stronghold in Zanzibar.


The flow of events in the original timeline is cleaner, more focused and far more believable. The new timeline fails on all fronts, down to the development of Big Boss. In MPW he rejects the Boss. That's crap. She is his world, even in 2014. Her death is the catalyst for everything so the notion of him rejecting her is ridiculous. Then in MGS5 he uses the medic as a shield fully comfortable with his identity being stripped away. After what was done to The Boss this does not fit. It goes against the core reasons for building Outer Heaven. Speaking of which, how is Big Boss in charge of Fox Hound if his body double is running around as the face of a major mercenary company? Diamond Dogs is global by the end of MGS5 and Big Boss' face is all over it. The body double tactic was dumb.


Ironically, I feel that MPO actually did less damage to the series than MPW/MGS5. Yeah, the Gray Fox thing was stupid and Sokolov did not need to come back, but overall it was relatively harmless. His evaluation of The Boss' path is slightly different as well, and more believable. Still, I feel like the story should just go MGS3 right to MG1. It's most effective and doesn't water down Big Boss."

I know those games were meant to explain Big Boss’ turn to evil. But it’s done in such a messy way that the overall flow of the story is hindered. Plus it retcons what is explained in MGS4. I guess that’s the main reason I prefer the original timeline.

There is indeed a contradiction. But doesn't Kojima make sh*t like that happen? MGS4 claims that" Major Zero was devoted to The Boss and wanted to shape the world as she intended." But in MPO it's mentioned that "Operation Snake Eater, in which Snake had to kill The Boss, occurred because Volgin intentionally fired the nuke. And a single mastermind was behind it all. So, Zero set up The Boss’ assassination and headed the mission." It's either that MPO is officially non-canon or an unresolved plot hole. But then again, the debate of PO being considered canon or not has raged for MULTIPLE discussions here, I won't list 'em all.

[A.G.]

I stopped caring about official canon a long time ago.

[Cerberus_0408]

But of course you did

[A.G.]

Again though, that’s if you account for MPO. I don’t. Official canon is a mess. MGS3 -> MG1 makes the most sense.

[Cerberus_0408]

Well then, MPO, Rising and MGS5 were all made for entertainment value, is that what you're implying? If so, I agree. Kinda like an ''alternate universe''.
It's a pity, tho. Kojima should invest more effort making sure the story flows with as few contradictions as possible. But then again, WAY easier said than done. Franchises like this are BOUND to have innumerable mistakes especially given the amount of fanbase it's amassed thus far.

[A.G.]

No, I’m not implying that. This is just how I look at the story. It’s like Indiana Jones. As far as I’m concerned there are only three films. Crystal Skull never happened.

[The Mad Jackyl]

I don't know why there is such a need for retconning in these classic series. I genuinely think that creators who hold reign over a long running series either have regrets about a story and retcon it for what they might deem as a more internally satisfying plot point or rely on the collective amnesia that 20 years of development will have on an audience. I truly think in some of these instances that due to games being released on older platforms, the creators and writers depend upon a large segment of their audience not knowing their story so far with as much scruple as fans like ourselves. In effect, they substitute or swap out certain parts in order to take advantage of and have some liberties with newer players who may not be as familiar.

Also, on the topic of films that never happened...mysteriously the Rocky series is missing a 5th entry. It skips straight from IV to VI. It does not exist, so please do not look for it, I've already done that work for you.

[fgdj2000]

Well, what I think The Phantom Pain does, is Flash out Zero more. It connects the likable person he was in MGS3 to the supposed Evil mastermind in MGS4 by recasting him as a man, whose schemes blew up right in his face. It really added to the ending of MGS4. Also, in MGS4 Big Boss was put on such a high pedestal that he seemed almost like a hero, with Outer Heaven being his rebellion against Zeros Empire. Which contradicted the earlier games. Peace Walker and MGSV give him back some humanity, make him flawed and restore a bit of his more villainous status in the original MSX games with him recruiting child soldiers and developing nukes in PW to him burning documents in Ground Zeroes to him brainwashing a loyal soldier and using him as decoy.
It's a more complicated story, I agree. But Metal Gear has already been pretty convoluted, so I don't mind now.

[Cerberus_0408]

I kinda agree with that. I liken Metal Gear to Star Wars a lot. That's exactly it. I'm totally against the new trilogy. rofl And just like Anakin, Big Boss went from a mythical figure to a whiny bitch! The boss this... Padme that... lmfao The most chapters Kojima makes about Big Boss the less I like his character.

When you play MG1, MG2, MGS1, and MGS2, Big Boss is looked upon as a nearly a god! MGS3 gave him back some "humanity", but not enough to mess with the legend. MGS4 paints him to be a 'hero' of sorts, as you mentioned. And while PW, GZ and PP retain his humanity, I still feel MPO and MPW really bring him down IMO. The more we know of him the less legendary he becomes.

[A.G.]

Maybe I’m in the minority in this, but Zero never came across as a villain to me. He was a likable character in MGS3 and by the time we learned what he did in MGS4 it really didn’t seem all that crazy. Based on what Eva said in Act 3 I never thought it needed more clarification or humanizing for Zero.

[fgdj2000]

Dec 20, 2017 18:01:20 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Maybe I’m in the minority in this, but Zero never came across as a villain to me. He was a likable character in MGS3 and by the time we learned what he did in MGS4 it really didn’t seem all that crazy. Based on what Eva said in Act 3 I never thought it needed more clarification or humanizing for Zero.

I guess everyone has their own reaction and interpretation. True, Zero wasn't really presented as an evil mastermind, but I still feel him becoming a control-freak because of The Boss' death (and the circumstances surrounding it) seemed far fetched, especially considering he didn't seem to be very close to her in the first place. What annoyed me more was more the Big Boss thing, declaring Outer Heaven as his coup d'etat against Zero. That just didn't make sense. Why wouldn't he tell Solid Snake about Zero in the Patriots in Outer Heaven?
Peace Walker and Phantom Pain (the former more than the latter really) establish it more as its own thing, Big Boss' very own philosophy. He didn't mean to rebel against Zero, but just do his own thing; which is more in line with what the earlier games presented. Also, it almost seems like Cipher/ The Patriots weren't that strong in the 1980s and 1990s and didn't regain their influence until the A.I.'s went online in the 2000s.
So, that world building aspect was handled fairly well for me.
But I admit that the overall story of both games is fairly unneccesary. I just connected with the upbeat tone of Peace Walker and its characters so well and that kept me interested in what their fates were revealed to be in TPP. But MGS1-4 are a pretty complete saga. Even the MSX games aren't really needed here, because they are also very different in tone and play the military fiction fairly straight, while MGS onwards has these sci-fi and anime elements more pronounced.

[Cerberus_0408]

Dec 21, 2017 12:56:12 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

I guess everyone has their own reaction and interpretation. True, Zero wasn't really presented as an evil mastermind, but I still feel him becoming a control-freak because of The Boss' death (and the circumstances surrounding it) seemed far fetched, especially considering he didn't seem to be very close to her in the first place. What annoyed me more was more the Big Boss thing, declaring Outer Heaven as his coup d'etat against Zero. That just didn't make sense. Why wouldn't he tell Solid Snake about Zero in the Patriots in Outer Heaven?
Peace Walker and Phantom Pain (the former more than the latter really) establish it more as its own thing, Big Boss' very own philosophy. He didn't mean to rebel against Zero, but just do his own thing; which is more in line with what the earlier games presented. Also, it almost seems like Cipher/ The Patriots weren't that strong in the 1980s and 1990s and didn't regain their influence until the A.I.'s went online in the 2000s.
So, that world building aspect was handled fairly well for me.
But I admit that the overall story of both games is fairly unneccesary. I just connected with the upbeat tone of Peace Walker and its characters so well and that kept me interested in what their fates were revealed to be in TPP. But MGS1-4 are a pretty complete saga. Even the MSX games aren't really needed here, because they are also very different in tone and play the military fiction fairly straight, while MGS onwards has these sci-fi and anime elements more pronounced.

First off, I disagree about PW's 'upbeat tone'. As I mentioned earlier:

When you play MG1, MG2, MGS1, and MGS2, Big Boss is looked upon as a nearly a god! MGS3 gave him back some "humanity", but not enough to mess with the legend. MGS4 paints him to be a 'hero' of sorts, as you mentioned. And while PW, GZ and PP retain his humanity, I still feel MPO and MPW really bring him down IMO. The more we know of him the less legendary he becomes.

Also, some people may not agree with the MSX games being part of the series. Like AG...according to his theory, the ENTIRE saga consists of MG1 to MGS4. So it's important not to downplay the MSX games!

[A.G.]

One of the things that really got me to respect Kojima early on was that he didn’t discard the 2D games. As games moved into 3D the industry and fans generally didn’t consider the 2D games in the same league as the new titles. But not Kojima. MGS fully acknowledges them as the first two main chapters and builds on their story. Much respect for that. Sure, their plot is very simplistic by comparison. But that’s fine. They are meant to show Solid Snake’s rookie years. I love those two games for what they brought to the table. In fact, it’s when Kojima started diminishing their importance that I started to turn away from him.

As for Outer Heaven I think what Eva explained in Act 3 is logical. Big Boss was struggling to find his identity after MGS3. He killed his mentor and everyone called him a hero and legend. Zero obtained limitless funds and had the opportunity to shape the world as he wanted using Big Boss as an icon. Big Boss turned away from that. As Zero grew more powerful and Big Boss separated himself further and further establishing Outer Heaven, something outside Zero’s control, was the only logical move. As for him not saying anything to Solid Snake, why would he? He knew who Snake was. A product of the Patriots. He had no reason to trust him. He trusted Gray Fox.

To be honest, I wasn’t completely against the idea of a game that told the Big Boss story. Even doing it open world style could’ve worked. But I would’ve done it in chapters, covering the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. And here I would focus on expanding on the MSX cast that we didn’t get much story on. Show Big Boss meeting Gray Fox (Not MPO bull sh*t). Show kidnapping Madnar. Show TX55 being built. Hell, I would’ve loved to fight a TX55 prototype as Gray Fox! That would show how he got caught and why TX55 wasn’t operational when Snake got there. Anything better than the Skullface and Parasite story.

[Cerberus_0408]

First of all...WHY would TX55 capture Gray Fox alive? Isn't the purpose of the machine to KILL intruders? I know he got captured but naturally these things would use lethal force, yeah?

Also...I know you may not agree with Skullface and Parasites but as I mentioned the main purpose of contradicting established continuity is to ensure 'new games are as good as they can possibly be' according to Kojima.