Story of Big Boss

[A.G.]

You are confusing TX55 Metal Gear with TX11 Mr Arnold/Bloody Brad. I would’ve liked to see Gray Fox take on Metal Gear TX55. That would be his last words in the radio “Metal Gear”. He fights it damages it enough to stop before he is captured. Maybe Big Boss pilots it.

[Cerberus_0408]

I admit I'm rather puzzled about what you're talking about but nevermind...

[A.G.]

I’m saying that if I made MGS5 I would focus on things that were already mentioned in the series. For example showing Gray Fox infiltrating Outer Heaven and maybe fight TX55.

[Cerberus_0408]

Yea but sadly Kojima doesn't happen to do that. Instead, he does crap like what we've seen to attract the fanbase.

[A.G.]

That’s the trouble with making installments between existing chapters. In order to keep the whole canon in tact you have to expand on existing material and not just throw in a bunch of new crap. Everything we got from these missing links was a waste. MPO, MPW, MGS5. All attempted and missed the mark. What we needed to see more of was the formation of the Patriots, Les Enfants Terrible Project, Big Boss helping people like Gray Fox and Sniper Wolf, and the formation of Outer Heaven. Instead we got Gene, MSF, Diamond Dogs, and parasites. All things that are not referenced in other games and thus have no real tie to the canon if you play the games chronologically.

[Cerberus_0408]

The unfortunate part is Kojima probably doesn't give a flying damn now. He tosses all that new sh*t rather than do what he should.

[fgdj2000]

Dec 21, 2017 22:11:48 GMT -5 A.G. said:

One of the things that really got me to respect Kojima early on was that he didn’t discard the 2D games. As games moved into 3D the industry and fans generally didn’t consider the 2D games in the same league as the new titles. But not Kojima. MGS fully acknowledges them as the first two main chapters and builds on their story. Much respect for that. Sure, their plot is very simplistic by comparison. But that’s fine. They are meant to show Solid Snake’s rookie years. I love those two games for what they brought to the table. In fact, it’s when Kojima started diminishing their importance that I started to turn away from him.

As for Outer Heaven I think what Eva explained in Act 3 is logical. Big Boss was struggling to find his identity after MGS3. He killed his mentor and everyone called him a hero and legend. Zero obtained limitless funds and had the opportunity to shape the world as he wanted using Big Boss as an icon. Big Boss turned away from that. As Zero grew more powerful and Big Boss separated himself further and further establishing Outer Heaven, something outside Zero’s control, was the only logical move. As for him not saying anything to Solid Snake, why would he? He knew who Snake was. A product of the Patriots. He had no reason to trust him. He trusted Gray Fox.

To be honest, I wasn’t completely against the idea of a game that told the Big Boss story. Even doing it open world style could’ve worked. But I would’ve done it in chapters, covering the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. And here I would focus on expanding on the MSX cast that we didn’t get much story on. Show Big Boss meeting Gray Fox (Not MPO bull sh*t). Show kidnapping Madnar. Show TX55 being built. Hell, I would’ve loved to fight a TX55 prototype as Gray Fox! That would show how he got caught and why TX55 wasn’t operational when Snake got there. Anything better than the Skullface and Parasite story.

Paragraph 1: I agree and feel the same way.
Paragraph 2: That makes quite a bit of sense. But it still leaves the plot point open, why Zero would let Big Boss back in the states and let him work for the Patriots (not quite, but kind of).
Paragraph 3: I think a game like this could have been pretty predictible and by the numbers, which I would have liked from a big picture point of view, but also found pretty boring. Peace Walker and Phantom Pain combined genuinely touched me at least, despite their flaws and contradictions with existing lore. Peace Walker introduced a new cast of characters and showed a pretty upbeat story about Big Boss building something for himself and letting go of the trauma of having killed his motherfigure, then Ground Zeroes and The Phantom Pain rip it all apart. As I said many times before, that aspect clicked for me, which is why I'm pretty forgiving to those games dispite their inherent flaws. Plus Kojima was clearly pressured (or at least felt pressured) into making more Metal Gear games, when he was done with the series 16 years ago, so it's remarkable they remained as good as they were for the most part and I'll cut him some slack for it.

[fgdj2000]

Dec 22, 2017 12:14:12 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

First of all...WHY would TX55 capture Gray Fox alive? Isn't the purpose of the machine to KILL intruders? I know he got captured but naturally these things would use lethal force, yeah?

Also...I know you may not agree with Skullface and Parasites but as I mentioned the main purpose of contradicting established continuity is to ensure 'new games are as good as they can possibly be' according to Kojima.

Paragraph 1: It's not a machine to kill intruders, it's primarly a mobile ICBM launcher that is also armed to defend itself and can traverse on any terrain because of its legs. So when Gray Fox attacks it, it can fight back.

Paragraph 2: Well, usually baggage from other installments in a series can hinder the creative process and you have ot discard potentially interesting ideas, especially if you have a long running franchise with the installment you are currently working on, set between two existing stories.
You might have a cool idea (what if there were some surviving Jedi having adventures during the time of the Empire in Star Wars?), but it may contradict existing lore (Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke seemed to be the only Jedi during the Original Trilogy), so writers tend to bend the rules a bit (Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke were *the only Jedi that we heard of* during the Original Trilogy *there could still be others, it's a big galaxy*).

[Cerberus_0408]

Thanks for the update. But still... it's kinda disappointing that these 'potentially interesting ideas' would be discarded.

[A.G.]

Paragraph 2: That makes quite a bit of sense. But it still leaves the plot point open, why Zero would let Big Boss back in the states and let him work for the Patriots (not quite, but kind of).

A relatively minor issue. If you go straight from MGS3 to MG1 then Zero would’ve been happy to have him back. After all, at that point he would not have known about Outer Heaven. From his perspective Big Boss just came back after drifting around the world. So it fits well as cover for Big Boss. Which is why having MSF.

Paragraph 3: I think a game like this could have been pretty predictible and by the numbers, which I would have liked from a big picture point of view, but also found pretty boring. Peace Walker and Phantom Pain combined genuinely touched me at least, despite their flaws and contradictions with existing lore. Peace Walker introduced a new cast of characters and showed a pretty upbeat story about Big Boss building something for himself and letting go of the trauma of having killed his motherfigure, then Ground Zeroes and The Phantom Pain rip it all apart. As I said many times before, that aspect clicked for me, which is why I'm pretty forgiving to those games dispite their inherent flaws. Plus Kojima was clearly pressured (or at least felt pressured) into making more Metal Gear games, when he was done with the series 16 years ago, so it's remarkable they remained as good as they were for the most part and I'll cut him some slack for it.

My stance on this is as follows:

1. If you choose to shoehorn a new entry between existing titles your top priority is to be faithful to those entries. An in between title is there to elaborate on existing material, not create new plot.

2. If you want to tell a new story, make a new IP. Don’t ruin existing material. MPW in design doesn’t match earlier titles and should’ve been a new IP.

Paragraph 2: Well, usually baggage from other installments in a series can hinder the creative process and you have ot discard potentially interesting ideas, especially if you have a long running franchise with the installment you are currently working on, set between two existing stories.
You might have a cool idea (what if there were some surviving Jedi having adventures during the time of the Empire in Star Wars?), but it may contradict existing lore (Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke seemed to be the only Jedi during the Original Trilogy), so writers tend to bend the rules a bit (Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke were *the only Jedi that we heard of* during the Original Trilogy *there could still be others, it's a big galaxy*).

But the problem is balance. You can tell a new story, but only if you create separation from existing content. As much as I didn’t care about Rogue One, it actually did it right. New cast and story that only connects to the main canon at the end. It doesn’t hurt Episide 4 nor does it add anything to it. But it’s an opportunity to tell a new story.

[fgdj2000]

A relatively minor issue. If you go straight from MGS3 to MG1 then Zero would’ve been happy to have him back. After all, at that point he would not have known about Outer Heaven. From his perspective Big Boss just came back after drifting around the world. So it fits well as cover for Big Boss. Which is why having MSF.

Yeah, alright. That makes some sense, but it's been a while since I played MGS4, so I'd have to check.


[quoteMy stance on this is as follows:

1. If you choose to shoehorn a new entry between existing titles your top priority is to be faithful to those entries. An in between title is there to elaborate on existing material, not create new plot.

2. If you want to tell a new story, make a new IP. Don’t ruin existing material. MPW in design doesn’t match earlier titles and should’ve been a new IP.[/quote]

Pretty much agree. But, as I said before, I do cut Kojima some slack, because he actually didn't want to make new Metal Gear games. Peace Walker and MGSV show how desperately he tried to do something different. He clearly made them only because he felt pressured to do so. He was even very vocal about that circumstance in numerous interviews. The big question is, of course, whether he was really pressured into making Metal Gear games by his company or whether it is all something that played out in his head or whether he might even be BS-ing everyone, including himself. Until Death Stranding is released, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was probably pressured into making more Metal Gear games by Konami, especially after the stories that have since been leaked about Konami working conditions. If he f***s up Death Stranding, I'll reassess the situation.

As a consequence, that means I think it's unfortunate that Peace Walker and MGSV were so different from the previous games and broke with the lore that had been established earlier, but I can enjoy them for what they are - decent - even great - games, that have continuity issues.

But the problem is balance. You can tell a new story, but only if you create separation from existing content. As much as I didn’t care about Rogue One, it actually did it right. New cast and story that only connects to the main canon at the end. It doesn’t hurt Episide 4 nor does it add anything to it. But it’s an opportunity to tell a new story.

I actually think Star Wars handles it quite well for the most part. I actually think Rogue One does add to Episode IV. Not really with the explanation of the design flaw, but just the fact that if you watch them back-to-back, not only have you experienced the might of the Death Star, but the plans and R2's mission gain that much more meaning and urgency of you have experienced just how many people fought and died for them. If R2 is caught, not only is the fate of the galaxy in question, but all these people would have died for nothing. Oh, but Luke wants to pick up some power converters.