Additional Notes against the Expanded Universe

[fgdj2000]

I didn't want to classify characters in categories of good and evil. I think part of the genius of the series is, that all its characters are multi-dimensional. However, I felt in trying to tie it all up, Kojima did make it seem in MGS4 as if Zero is an evil mastermind and Big Boss a secret hero/ good guy who wanted to save the world from Zero. At least that's what I got out of it, and what I actually didn't like about it. All I'm saying is I just didn't quite buy the retcon in MGS4 that made Zero the creator of the Patriots and I felt it made things a bit too simple and made it seem more binary good and evi, whether this was Kojima's intention or notl. And that MPW and especially MGSV's truth tapes made it once again seem less so. But that's where MGS4 landed differently for each of us.

Other than that I pretty much agree with your assessment. Big Boss and Zero just being two men who did what they thought was right, even if they were misguided... and how MGS4's A.I. kind of tied into both their philosophies.

But I do think Kojima has a clear moral stance on all of this, namely that both Zero and Big Boss are wrong.

[A.G.]

On a related note, how and when did the AIs get created? Prior to the Expanded Universe game’s the creation of the Patriot AIs seemed logical. Big Boss left and Zero lost his faith in the next generation. So he started development of the AIs. In fact, global AI control could’ve been a point Big Boss I can see Big Boss rebelling against. I also feel that making Big Boss the key to the system was a poetic touch. But that could’ve only happened after 1999. However, in the MGS5 storyline it seems Zero fell apart in the early 80’s. So this brings up a few questions:

With Zero out, what was the point of the Outer Heaven and Zanzibar uprisings?
If there isn’t a “Cold War” between the two, then what’s point of the first two games?
If Zero was brain damaged, how did the AI project move forward?
Without Zero, why would Big Boss’ DNA be set up as the key to the system?

Just doesn’t add up. It seems to me that in order for the AI story to make sense, you have to have a conflict between the two:

They start The Patriots
Big Boss leaves after learning about the clones
Zero grows distant from other after the falling out with Big Boss and decides to build the AI control
Big Boss resists by forming Outer Heaven and Zanzibar
After his defeat, Zero “brings back” the body of Big Boss and makes it the key to the system, in a way making his old friend a part of his vision afterall

That seems to make more sense.

[fgdj2000]

Well, you said it yourself, Big Boss wanted to create a world where soldiers would always be needed. Basically taking Zero out and making them less bitter about each other kind of restores Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land's original place in the story as militaristic regimes with the U.N. or the U.S.A. going against them purely because of their advanced weapon. Big Boss' speech at the end of MG2 didn't fit at all with the reveal that it was an uprising against the Patriots. Now, it fits again.

As for when the A.I.s were developed and why Big Boss' DNA was made the key? Well, the former was just moved up in the timeline. Instead of the A.I. being developed in the 1990s and 2000s, development now starts about a decade earlier. And why was Big Boss used as a key? Maybe, because Zero and him found at least some common ground and Zero knew that Big Boss was incorruptible? Maybe it was his dying wish (before becoming a vegetable) and Sigint and Para-Medic just followed it?

So....

They start the Patriots
Big Boss leaves after learning about the clones
Zero grows distant from others after the falling out with Big Boss and decides to come up with a scheme to bring him back (Peace Walker)
After Zero is rejected again, Skull Face uses this as an excuse to wipe out Big Boss and MSF and infects Zero with a parasite
Zero saves Big Boss even after all that's happened (which I think has a very nice tragic touch), and has work on the A.I.s started, and has a body double for Big Boss put in place
Venom Snake serves as body double in order to keep Skull Face occupied, BUT exceeds all expectations and kills him
Big Boss forms Outer Heaven with Venom Snake. Venom Snake poses as leader of OH, while Big Boss returns to FoxHound in order to keep OH hidden.
The US discover the potential of Outer Heaven and Big Boss is ordered to take it down. He sends in Solid Snake who also exceeds all expectations and exposes Big Boss.
OH is destroyed and BB flees and reforms OH as Zanzibar Land.
Solid Snake is again send to take ZL down.

Seems pretty logical to me. I admit, we don't know the exact status of Cypher/ the Patriots during MG1 and MG2, but I don't think it's far fetched to assume that they either left Big Boss alone until OH became a perceived threat - maybe they didn't even know about OH until 1995 - or that they were rebuilding and eventually returned in full mastermind-force once the A.I.s started to go operational in the early 2000s. And, yeah, for a game that was advertised as a missing link to leave such a big question mark, it sucks, but what do you want? Metal Gear Solid 6: The Rise of the Patriots? A Remake of MG1 and MG2 that adds in new scenes about the Patriots?

[A.G.]

Nah, I already have what I want. A logical plot leading up to MGS4 without MPW and MGS5. lol

Your own outline continues to place things that you claim are logical but are not. I’m sorry, but I can’t agree in these points making any sense:

Venom placed in Outer Heaven. Dumbest plan EVER! If Big Boss returned to US and wanted his involvement in Outer Heaven be a secret, why the hell would he put his body double in charge of it?! Seriously, you can’t possibly defend this. It’s dumb.

Zero and Big Boss bromance. So... you find it perfectly acceptable that in 1974 he has Paz try to kill him with ZEKE and frame him by launching a nuke, but a decade later he is so upset over what Skullface did? Really?! It’s BS. And even if he started developing the AIs early, by 1999 Zero was brain dead. So there is no reason to make Big Boss the key. Think this through. The AIs didn’t go into effect until early 2000’s. GW is proof of that since it was the last piece in 2009. Zero had to be functional at least until early 2000’s to integrate Big Boss as the key after Zanzibar. If he wasn’t, then Ocelot would not have needed his master plan. Zero being brain damaged since the 80’s DOES NOT WORK.



Regarding your two points of disagreement, here are my thoughts:

MG2 Big Boss speech doesn’t fit. Yes it does. Both Schneider and Gray Fox confirm it. War is inevitable. Soldiers will always need that world. Many can’t do anything besides fight. It’s a perpetual cycle. And that’s exactly what Big Boss said in MG2. Sure, opposing Zero is a new plot point added by later games, much like the cloning aspect, but it still fits. Zero wanted control over the world to achieve unity. That type of control would very much oppose Big Boss’ vision of perpetual war. So it makes logical sense that he would oppose Zero’s control.

Zero being an evil mastermind. As I said before, I didn’t see that at all. His intentions were logical, but he went too deep down his path until his work spun out of control. Don’t forget, what we saw in MGS4 wasn’t Zero’s doing. AIs broke away and started making their own decisions. That doesn’t make Zero the villain. He just accidentally created Skynet. Something he could not have foreseen.



I don’t see any logic in the changes MPW and MGS5 made. For any good they may have offered they did double the damage to the overall plot.