Gear Topics - Big Boss goals

[A.G.]

Since the other topic is getting a little convoluted, I wanted to start separating them. One Gear topic to dive into per thread. This way we can get into the details with more focus.

Let’s kick it off Big Boss. There are different opinions on his goals and vision. So let’s take a look at what we saw.

To start I will look at the story given in MG1 - MGS4, excluding MPW and MGS5.

MG2 seems to be the most polarizing. Here many see him as a madman. But I would challenge that it depends on your point of view. Both Schneider and Gray Fox paint a very different picture. Soldiers are often used as tools and then discarded. Some grew up in battle and are in capable of living a normal life without it. Nations of the world tend to cover up the impact wars have on people. Outer Heaven was bombed by NATO, killing many innocent people simply to cover up a dirty mess. Big Boss, for all his flaws, sees the human race as being incapable of living without war. His goal then becomes attempting to control war. In the process giving those that have no alternative a place to exist. This tied very well with the origin of this thinking in MGS3. He was used to kill the most important person in his life. A person that was a loyal soldier. So he made the decision that to be loyal to his own vision. A vision were war is a controlled mechanism that gives humanity purpose. At least in his eyes. Given the amount of positive impact he made on the lives of many people (examples include Schneider, Fox, Naomi, Wolf and even Snake to some degree) I don’t believe him to be a villain or a madman. Much of his point of view is well justified. In MGS4 we see a man who regrets his choices. While his view may not have been entirely wrong, one man trying to control something like that is an act doomed to failure. As The Boss said, it’s best to leave the world as is instead of trying to shape it.

This also tied well into the MGS4 explanation that there was a Cold War between Zero and Big Boss. The type of control Zero wanted clashed with the ideals Big Boss head. It’s logical the two would part ways and conflict would happen.

Where I feel we go off track in this story is with what we get in MPW and MGS5. In MPW Big Boss simply built a PMC, a business. And his ideology just seemed very mechanical. As he said in his ending speech, they were just guns for hire, even if that meant they were terrorists. That doesn’t fit. Big Boss in the other games had a purpose and a vision. He wasn’t just randomly stealing soldiers and turning them into guns for hire. This is further emphasized by Ocelot at the end of MGS4. Once the PMC machine was broken he explained that it was the world Big Boss wanted. One where war is a natural way of life. While MGS5 didn’t show much of Big Boss, Diamond Dogs was something he had in his plans. But the bigger issue is THE TWIST. Big Boss is presented as someone who used the medic/player as he wanted, stripping away his identity. That’s the opposite of what Big Boss is. Look what he did for other characters. Even took the time to train Snake himself! That type of action isn’t Big Boss, at least not what we had in MG1-MGS4.

[fgdj2000]

His goal then becomes attempting to control war. In the process giving those that have no alternative a place to exist.

That's where we disagree. I don't think he wanted the control war, but just keep war alive as much as possible, because, he believed, once you experience war, you just can't live without it. At the end of MG2 he says (paraphrasing) not even sex can sitsfy you, only fighting. Basically, he is talking about people suffering from PTSD, a serious psychological disease. But instead of treating them, he wants to send them back into the battlefield. He is basically weaponizing their trauma. What makes him interesting here, is that in a way he is right. Soldiers and people who have experienced war can have some serious difficulty readjusting to "normal" life, which is often made worse, because they weren't often taken seriously in their trauma. It wasn't until the past 20 or so years that PTSD was met with a lot more care and understanding and even then it's often tough. So, you can understand someone just giving up on living a "normal" life and going back to the battlefield and all the killing.
Where most psychologists would say this is akin to a junkie giving up rehab and going back to meth and heroin, Big Boss says, yeah, go ahead, be yourself. He has a warped sense of right and wrong which makes him so interesting as a character.
On top of that, he genuinely believes, war brings out the best in us, which is mirrored by Ocelot's statement at the end of MGS4 where he says (paraphrasing) now, that SOP is gone, the world will fall back into chaos and people will fight and through fighting they will know themselves. And in a way, he is right. And I see Outer Heaven as his attempt to become a dominant superpower and at least to some degree, make sure there is always fighting on the planet, because it's ultimately in the best interest for everyone.

Then came MGS3 and flashed his motives out, how he was first a loyal soldier protecting his country and how he was used to kill his mentor and friend to protect basically the politicians from an embarrassing situation. On top of that, The Boss wasn't just killed, but branded as a traitor, despite being absolutely loyal to her country. That's what drives him to make his own soldier-nation and create a world where soldiers are always needed. and, as you said, perfect symmetry, perfect logic.

But then MGS4 had to come along and tie it all with the Patriots and convolute things. Now, he is ALSO trying to fulfill The Boss' vision of the world and ALSO plots coup d'etat against Zero, which IMO raised a lot of questions and issues that I grow tired of laying out over and over again.

So, MPW and MGSV convoluted things further, but also addressed at least some of the issues MGS4 raised, while also raising their own batch of issues.

Anyway, to summarize: I think we agree, that Big Boss wasn't just a two-dimensional villain and was man who was trying to do what he thought was the right thing. And that everything was nice and easy put until MGS3 at least.

Where we disagree: The vision of Big Boss itself (a little at least) and where you were okay with MGS4, I felt it raised a lot of questions, which where addressed by MPW and MGSV, which you thought were wholly unneccesary and contradicted other stuff.

[A.G.]

I don’t know, most of what you outlined definitely sounds like attempting to control war. As Liquid said in MGS1, there will always be war but the problem is balance and Big Boss knew what balance was best. By saving, training and reintroducing soldiers in perpetual war I don’t see this as anything but attempt at controlling war.

But then MGS4 had to come along and tie it all with the Patriots and convolute things. Now, he is ALSO trying to fulfill The Boss' vision of the world and ALSO plots coup d'etat against Zero, which IMO raised a lot of questions and issues that I grow tired of laying out over and over again.

So, MPW and MGSV convoluted things further, but also addressed at least some of the issues MGS4 raised, while also raising their own batch of issues.

But is it that much of a stretch to tie that in? All of these pieces are more or less byproducts of his main goal:

Fulfilling The Boss’ vision - What was her vision? One world without borders, no East or West. No Cold War. But unfortunately because he was so obsessed with war, he could only visualize that type of freedom through battle. If you see war as inevitable, wish for a world where soldiers are not discarded and feel that the only way to truly understand life is through battle, controlling war is the only logical path. It wasn’t about fulfilling her vision. It was about being inspired by her vision but misunderstanding the point and thus creating his interpretation of it based on how he saw the world. So I don’t think there is a conflict here. I’m not sure what MPW and MGS5 added that helps. That Big Boss chose a different path from The Boss? We already got that point in MGS4. There was no need to hammer it further. As for the part I don’t agree with, those games made his vision more of a business and his final speech at the end of MPW seems like a contradiction to the other games. He clearly stated they have no ideology. They go where they are needed, even if that makes them at times terrorists. So... basically tools. The very thing he was against after how The Boss was treated. Gray Fox said it best, we are not tools of the government or anyone else. That’s the big lesson he learned from Big Boss. But MSF and Diamond Dogs are an exact contradiction to that philosophy, making his path an impersonal business without ideology or self fulfillment. That’s where I feel what we had in MG2 and MGS4 doesn’t work with what was added by MPW and MGS5.


War with Zero - much as the first part, I see this as another byproduct of his vision. Zero wanted control as well. Much like Big Boss, he was trying to work towards that unified world idea. But his version was about controlling thought itself. Manipulating politics, structuring the human culture to fit his own vision. In essence, the lack of free will. The world is an unruly place where many suffer and if a society was installed where everyone were guided in the same direction you wouldn’t have war and suffering. Logical deduction by someone like Zero and another interpretation of The Boss’ unity vision. But unlike Big Boss, Zero was working on suppressing the chaos caused by human free will. In his eyes that is what was preventing unity. When you put the two side by side it’s clear why they parted ways. One wanted perpetual battle as a way to fully express yourself while the other wanted a unified culture that what potentially eliminate conflict, and with it free will. And that’s where I felt MGS5 was out of place. MPW didn’t have much to do with Zero, but it did bother me that he had spies with Big Boss and thus knee about Outer Heaven, making the MG1 setup completely illogical. For MG1 to work Zero can’t know about Outer Heaven. As for the friendship angle in MGS5 tapes... it’s just out of place. It doesn’t even work with MPW. He tries to kill Big Boss with Zeke and frame him for launching a nuke. It has a big problem when Skullface takes down MSF? C’mon! That’s the type of inconsistency that hurts the flow of the story. Without these games the flow is much more logical. The two have opposing visions of control. And I believe that Outer Heaven and Metal Gear was Big Boss’ response to the idea of Zero developing AI control. I would guess Ocelot or Eva told him. If the AIs are Zero’s big guns, Outer Heaven was Big Boss’. Even the name fits. It’s the Heaven outside Zero’s control.


The best part is how this works perfectly into MGS4. The Patriots AI basically merged the two visions into one nightmare. They started building a unified world, fully under their control. Controlling thought and free will. And war was used as the fuel to move it all forward. It’s ironic. Two men who were inspired by a vision of a unified word ended up contributing to a soulless machine that nearly enslaved the human race. And all because they misinterpreted the person they both admired. It’s poetic.

[fgdj2000]

Fulfilling The Boss’ vision - What was her vision? One world without borders, no East or West. No Cold War. But unfortunately because he was so obsessed with war, he could only visualize that type of freedom through battle. If you see war as inevitable, wish for a world where soldiers are not discarded and feel that the only way to truly understand life is through battle, controlling war is the only logical path. It wasn’t about fulfilling her vision. It was about being inspired by her vision but misunderstanding the point and thus creating his interpretation of it based on how he saw the world. So I don’t think there is a conflict here.

Hmm, if it's just being inspired by her vision, then I see how you don't have an issue with this. But I remember EVA in MGS4 clearly stating that both Zero and Big Boss wanted to fulfill her vision of a unified world and also, that Big Boss didn't want to control war, but just have chaos and anarchy. Both Zero and Big Boss represent a dichotomy. Zero wants one world through control, basically inside one border, while Big Boss wanted one world through chaos, basically anarchy and no borders at all like it used to be in prehistoric times (technically). And, as you said before, the irony was, that SOP kind of did both at the same time.

those games made his vision more of a business and his final speech at the end of MPW seems like a contradiction to the other games. He clearly stated they have no ideology. They go where they are needed, even if that makes them at times terrorists. So... basically tools.

I don't think MSF/ DD are tools, because they aren't accountable to anyone. They aren't used by a government, they are given a contract and can basically choose whether to take it or not. They get all the information and aren't branded trailers and discarded after decasdes of loyal service, like The Boss. It's kind of the same difference between owning your own business and working in a company. The former makes you your own boss and you are not used and cast aside, whereas if you work in a company you are just a wheel in the machine and can be easily discarded if things don't go well.

But MSF and Diamond Dogs are an exact contradiction to that philosophy, making his path an impersonal business without ideology or self fulfillment. That’s where I feel what we had in MG2 and MGS4 doesn’t work with what was added by MPW and MGS5.

Also, MSF is not quite Outer Heaven, yet. It's not a country that wants to spread war, yet. That comes after Ground Zeroes. Also, DD also isn't Outer Heaven and is basically a big distraction for Big Boss to establish the real Outer Heaven.

And that’s where I felt MGS5 was out of place. MPW didn’t have much to do with Zero, but it did bother me that he had spies with Big Boss and thus knee about Outer Heaven, making the MG1 setup completely illogical. For MG1 to work Zero can’t know about Outer Heaven. As for the friendship angle in MGS5 tapes... it’s just out of place. It doesn’t even work with MPW. He tries to kill Big Boss with Zeke and frame him for launching a nuke. It has a big problem when Skullface takes down MSF? C’mon! That’s the type of inconsistency that hurts the flow of the story.

Well, the goal of Zero in MPW wasn't trying to kill Big Boss, he was trying to get him to rejoin him. And launching Zeke and blaming MSF was just Plan B (also, this is what Paz did and said and we don't know how much Zero was on board with that). I actually think Zero saving Big Boss in ground zeroes makes perfect sense especially with what was established in MGS4, namely, that Zero still harbored strong feelings for Big Boss, which is why his DNA became the key for SOP in that game, so I don't think it's that much of a stretch that, even if he was trying to kill him before, once he actually saw him mortally wounded and in a coma, his emotions would take over and remember that they were friends not that long ago and save him, even if it's not logical. I think there is kind of a nice irony in there that Zero was this strong logical mind that still was fallible and irrational when it came to certain things and people.

Without these games the flow is much more logical. The two have opposing visions of control. And I believe that Outer Heaven and Metal Gear was Big Boss’ response to the idea of Zero developing AI control.

But I think that latter part contradicts the earlier games, because Big Boss didn't create Outer Heave to oppose Zero. And why didn't he mention Zero and the Patriots in MG2 (well, because they hadn't been invented yet). He clearly had his own ideology and morale which also seems quite opposed to The Boss' and saying that he arrived there while trying to fulfill her will, sorry, that's quite a stretch for me. Big Boss didn't want unity and one world, he wanted a world where soldiers would always have a place and where there will always be war. Isn't it more interesting, if Outer Heaven is his vision instead of a reaction to Zero or a way to fulfill another person's will (both aspects were introduced in MGS4)? I feel that was restored in PW in particular, where he out right rejects The Boss and on top of that, MGSV adds the irony that he does the same thing to Venom Snake which the US government had done to The Boss. It fits with his ramblings at the end of MG2, the stuff people say about him in MGS1 and MGS2 and with his regrets at the end of MGS4 where he realizes that The Boss was right after all.

But, yeah, I admit, it is more convoluted.

The best part is how this works perfectly into MGS4. The Patriots AI basically merged the two visions into one nightmare. They started building a unified world, fully under their control. Controlling thought and free will. And war was used as the fuel to move it all forward. It’s ironic. Two men who were inspired by a vision of a unified word ended up contributing to a soulless machine that nearly enslaved the human race. And all because they misinterpreted the person they both admired. It’s poetic.

Now, on that at least we can agree 100%.