Branching the Canon

[A.G.]

With all the retcons I think the most logical path is to consider multiple canons. It addresses the inconsistencies and prevents plot points from clashing, like the MGS4 view of Big Boss vs the MGS5 take. Clearly they are different and it’s evident Kojima as changing his mind on things as he went from game to game. So, here is how many timelines I see. With MG1 having so little story it fits well into most timelines.

MSX Timeline
MG1 - MG2 (the original story without any cloning elements)

Guns Of The Patriots Timeline
MGS3 - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 - MGS4

Phantom Timeline
MGS3 - MPW - MGS5 - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 (can’t include MGS4)

Portable Ops Timeline
MGS3 - MPO - MG1 (has to stop here as MPO clashes with MG2)

Rising Timeline
Adds Rising to the GOP Timeline as an alternative direction for Raiden.

Ghost Babel Timeline
MG1 - MGGB

Acid Timeline
Acid 1 - Acid 2

[fgdj2000]

Well, for me, it's just the Kojima timeline:

MGS3 - (MGS PO) - MGS PW - MGSV - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 - MGS4

MPO is included as basically expanded universe. Like Agents of SHIELD or the Netflix shows are the the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Then there's the alternate Rising timeline that adds MGR after MGS4, as seen in Ground Zeroes.

I've said it before, to me, even though it wasn't well written when it comes to dialogue and characters, PW and TPP fixed some issues I've had with MGS4. I don't want to kick off another discussion, just want to say, that for me it works, and I recognize, it doesn't work for you.

Have you played there Acid games? Are they any good story-/gameplay-wise? (I've never had the patience to finish them).

[A.G.]

I started both Acid games but never finished them. Story, characters, gameplay and overall design was a turnoff.

Regarding the timeline, I just don’t see how MGS4 and MGS5 fit together. What Eva explains in Act 3 doesn’t match what we got through MGS5. I can see it helping explain the evolution of the Big Boss character. But I don’t see how the events match up. Not to mention the entire concept of Big Boss becoming the key to the Patriots system. According to MGS5 Zero would not have been able to do what MGS4 said he did in the late 90s. We know the Patriots AI wasn’t final until we get closer to MGS2. So who would’ve locked away Big Boss? And why would Eva and Ocelot allow it? As MGS4 said, they started their plan after Zanzibar. But if Zero was a vegetable by that point, then it negates the entire conflict. You say MGS5 explains some things in MGS4. But I think it convolutes many others, including the main plot objective the series was building up to. MGS4 only works if there was a war between Zero and Big Boss. But MGS5 clearly shows there wasn’t one.

[Cerberus_0408]

"MGS4 only works if there was a war between Zero and Big Boss. But MGS5 clearly shows there wasn’t one."


I know you will hate me for quoting the wiki yet again, but read this article. It says that a war actually happened between them.

metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/War_between_Big_Boss_and_Zero

As for my timeline, it really depends. But overall I agree with AG.

MGS3 - (MGS PO is debatable) - MGS PW (debatable)- MGS5 (debatable) - MG1 - MG2 - MGS1 - MGS2 - MGS4 - Revengeance (debatable)

MGS4 would be considered a true entry to me, since it was a conclusion to the series. The 3 games you see are debatable based on what you want to achieve in the story. MG Revengeance is also debatable if you want Raiden to have that character arc.

As for MPO, if parts of it are canon and others are not, then it simply is not canon. Simple as that. Like AG, I stick to the six main games and the rest I have a grain of salt when comprehending them.

[A.G.]

The article is just a summary of in-game events. It’s too vague to answer the specific questions I’m asking. It also very much proved that just calling something a war doesn’t actually make one.


Big Boss is in charge of Foxhound on the side of the Patriots in 1995 and uses it as cover, right? And he has Venom pose as the leader of Outer Heaven, right? So why have your duplicate be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.


Things like these aren’t small details that one can overlook. These are massive plot holes then negate the entire story of the series. I know I get painted with “well, you hate those games so you try to nitpick details that push them out of the canon.” Not true. I love the story of Metal Gear. If MGS5 actually helped the overall plot I would have no issue with it. But it doesn’t. There are massive inconsistencies when you factor in the events of that game.

[fgdj2000]

Well, I think with some mental gymnastics you can explain some of it away.

Why did Big Boss use Phantom Big Boss to lead Outer Heaven, when this could easily blow his cover? Obviously Venom was his best soldier, already had experience in leadership, was blindly and unshakably loyal, and also (carrying Big Boss' appearance) inspiring to his men? I actually don't think the people in Outer Heaven knew who Venom really was; case in point: Schneider.
Of course, why didn't Big Boss blame the whole thing on Venom Snake and got himself out Scott free? That's my head scratcher

Zero was brain dead in the 1980s, but he clearly started the A.I. projects in the 1970s. Who knows, what his other contingencies were? Actually making Big Boss the key to his A.I. program makes more sense to me now, since he clearly has still strong feelings of kinship towards him, despite all their differences. We also don't know how much of all the revelations in PW and V Eva actually knew in 2014. It seems, she didn't even know that Solidus was the corpse, rather than Big Boss? At least, she acted like it.

I honestly have to replay the games again to really partake in a deep discussion. But yeah, it's convoluted and gotten more so with each entry at least since after MGS3. (Remember how back then it wasn't a saga, but basically a collection of spy stories that was set in an interconnected world, crossing over in numerous ways?)

[A.G.]

She knew the body was Solidus. The wrong eye was missing. She definitely knew. At first I thought she crawled into the fire after the body, which would be strange, but she didn’t. That scream was later confirmed that it was Fox Die hitting her.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story.

[Cerberus_0408]

In response to AG's queries

"Big Boss is in charge of Foxhound on the side of the Patriots in 1995 and uses it as cover, right? And he has Venom pose as the leader of Outer Heaven, right? So why have your duplicate be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story."

1. BB in charge of OH: Venom Snake is an insprational figurehead for Outer Heaven's soldiers; his physical appearance being revealed publicly was never an issue, it only coming to light after his defeat.

2. Who was in charge of the Patriots: Zero set in motion the implementation of the AIs early on, so any Patriot subordinates could, I imagine, have carried it to completion, with Donald Anderson spearheading it up until his death.

3. Zero and BB: The enemy is Zero's Patriots, and his AI proxies; the characters merely refer to the man and the system he created interchangably, as his perceived presence in MGS4 has transcended his physical being.

4. MSF and DD before OH: Like you said, MSF and Diamond Dogs = Outer Heaven. In other words, MSF is Outer Heaven. Diamonds Dogs IS also Outer Heaven. Which is not merely a location - it's more of an ideology. There's also NO evidence whatsoever, that the South African fortress was lesser in any respect . But since the game was an 8-bit in graphics, that was probably the way that we perceived it to be.