Metal Gear development

[A.G.]

So in our battles over Phantom Pain 😅 we touched on the development of various Metal Gears. So taking all the other elements, let’s discuss this. This is another element that I feel is crucial to the chronology of the series. I also came across a new point that I didn’t consider before. So let’s dive in.

1964 - We know from MGS3 that Granin originated the plans for a walking tank, and had blueprints for both Metal Gear D and Rex. He also had a model of both Rex and Ray in his office.

1995 - So here I want to bring up a new point, or at least start it. Madnar. A Russian expert in robotics who was kidnapped and forced to develop a Metal Gear in Outer Heaven using Granin’s original concepts. He created the TX-55 prototype but it was destroyed before being operational.

1999 - This is where it gets interesting. After Outer Heaven he actually went to US and worked for the government. However, his ideas regarding Metal Gear technology were laughed at and he ended up joining Big Boss voluntarily so he could complete Metal Gear. This is stated by him in MG2.

2005 - Donald Anderson, arguably Zero’s right hand man, is revealed to be involved in the project to develop Rex. So the Patriots are building Rex.


So here is where chronology starts to get problematic when you add Peace Walker, Zeke and Sahelanthropus. Why would US turn down Madnar and consider the Metal Gear concept as laughable when we they had a Peace Walker project? Why would the Patriots ignore this knowing about Zeke and Sahelanthropus? Why would they try to develop Rex when Sahelanthropus and Zeke had far more mobility? Naturally the simple answer is that part of the plot didn’t exist when the early games were made. But that is irrelevant when looking at the canon. If you add installments they have to fit inside the existing structure.

I don’t believe that such things can just be ignored. It’s not as simple as another retcon. And I would love to have a separate discussion on retcons. Tech evolution has to make sense in a series. Madnar is another example of why these two games clash with the MSX titles.

[fgdj2000]

May 22, 2020 22:37:20 GMT -5 A.G. said:

So in our battles over Phantom Pain 😅

Heh

So here is where chronology starts to get problematic when you add Peace Walker, Zeke and Sahelanthropus. Why would US turn down Madnar and consider the Metal Gear concept as laughable when we they had a Peace Walker project? Why would the Patriots ignore this knowing about Zeke and Sahelanthropus? Why would they try to develop Rex when Sahelanthropus and Zeke had far more mobility? Naturally the simple answer is that part of the plot didn’t exist when the early games were made. But that is irrelevant when looking at the canon. If you add installments they have to fit inside the existing structure.

So,again, Sahelanthropus DIDN'T WORK! As for the Peace Walker project. I think, it wasn't well known, so if some guy in the late 1990s finds the concept laughable, it's not a problem for me, since he probably didn't know about something classified that happened 25 years earlier. On the other hand, seeing how big and fortified Peace Walker was and how much of a threat it became, maybe they didn't want another super weapon that could be used against them, which either changed after Zanzibar, hence the development of REX, or Donald Anderson and Kenneth Baker did their own thing off the books, which is more likely, since it was a black project.

TLDR, basically, the events in the world of Metal Gear aren't public knowledge with few exceptions, so you can't assume, just because something happened earlier, everyone knows about it.

I don’t believe that such things can just be ignored. It’s not as simple as another retcon. And I would love to have a separate discussion on retcons. Tech evolution has to make sense in a series. Madnar is another example of why these two games clash with the MSX titles.

Also, Madnar was pretty much ignored after MG2, apart from an arguably cute remark in MGS4. That was pretty much as much a Snatcher reference as it was a Metal Gear one. But... wasn't he dead? And why didn't Snake react to that name?

[Cerberus_0408]

May 23, 2020 0:42:57 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 22, 2020 22:37:20 GMT -5 A.G. said:

So in our battles over Phantom Pain 😅

Heh

So here is where chronology starts to get problematic when you add Peace Walker, Zeke and Sahelanthropus. Why would US turn down Madnar and consider the Metal Gear concept as laughable when we they had a Peace Walker project? Why would the Patriots ignore this knowing about Zeke and Sahelanthropus? Why would they try to develop Rex when Sahelanthropus and Zeke had far more mobility? Naturally the simple answer is that part of the plot didn’t exist when the early games were made. But that is irrelevant when looking at the canon. If you add installments they have to fit inside the existing structure.

So,again, Sahelanthropus DIDN'T WORK! As for the Peace Walker project. I think, it wasn't well known, so if some guy in the late 1990s finds the concept laughable, it's not a problem for me, since he probably didn't know about something classified that happened 25 years earlier. On the other hand, seeing how big and fortified Peace Walker was and how much of a threat it became, maybe they didn't want another super weapon that could be used against them, which either changed after Zanzibar, hence the development of REX, or Donald Anderson and Kenneth Baker did their own thing off the books, which is more likely, since it was a black project.

TLDR, basically, the events in the world of Metal Gear aren't public knowledge with few exceptions, so you can't assume, just because something happened earlier, everyone knows about it.

Whether or not Sahelanthropus actually worked or not is irrelevant (in my opinion). He's questioning why the machine is even there in the first place.

I don’t believe that such things can just be ignored. It’s not as simple as another retcon. And I would love to have a separate discussion on retcons. Tech evolution has to make sense in a series. Madnar is another example of why these two games clash with the MSX titles.

Also, Madnar was pretty much ignored after MG2, apart from an arguably cute remark in MGS4. That was pretty much as much a Snatcher reference as it was a Metal Gear one. But... wasn't he dead? And why didn't Snake react to that name? [/quote]

Dr. Madnar survived the Zanzibar Land Disturbance and went into hiding in Eastern Europe, this is revealed in MGS4.

[fgdj2000]

May 23, 2020 0:47:41 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

May 23, 2020 0:42:57 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

Heh

So,again, Sahelanthropus DIDN'T WORK! As for the Peace Walker project. I think, it wasn't well known, so if some guy in the late 1990s finds the concept laughable, it's not a problem for me, since he probably didn't know about something classified that happened 25 years earlier. On the other hand, seeing how big and fortified Peace Walker was and how much of a threat it became, maybe they didn't want another super weapon that could be used against them, which either changed after Zanzibar, hence the development of REX, or Donald Anderson and Kenneth Baker did their own thing off the books, which is more likely, since it was a black project.

TLDR, basically, the events in the world of Metal Gear aren't public knowledge with few exceptions, so you can't assume, just because something happened earlier, everyone knows about it.

Whether or not Sahelanthropus actually worked or not is irrelevant (in my opinion). He's questioning why the machine is even there in the first place.

I don’t believe that such things can just be ignored. It’s not as simple as another retcon. And I would love to have a separate discussion on retcons. Tech evolution has to make sense in a series. Madnar is another example of why these two games clash with the MSX titles.

Also, Madnar was pretty much ignored after MG2, apart from an arguably cute remark in MGS4. That was pretty much as much a Snatcher reference as it was a Metal Gear one. But... wasn't he dead? And why didn't Snake react to that name?

Dr. Madnar survived the Zanzibar Land Disturbance and went into hiding in Eastern Europe, this is revealed in MGS4.
[/quote]

Sahelanthropus is relevant because the argument A.G. makes that it was more advanced than some of the later mechs (in the timeline). But how can it be more advanced if it doesn't work? The cockpit was too small to acomodate an adult, because the machine's head would have been too big, it couldn't walk as intended until a psychic manipulated it with his powers. 

It's like having a holographic iPhone in the 1980s, but if it doesn't actually work, If the holograms don't show, it's worthless isn't it?!

My personal theory regarding Madnar, is that they are actually talking about the cybernetics expert Dr. Ellen Madnar

[Cerberus_0408]

Well I guess it was more advanced, precisely because you needed a special person and without that person it couldn't work. That person being a psychic.

lmfao

[Cerberus_0408]

Also about Madnar, I didn't know this at first but he had a decoy. The decoy is the one who you see in the first MG game.

[fgdj2000]

May 23, 2020 1:00:02 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Well I guess it was more advanced, precisely because you needed a special person and without that person it couldn't work. That person being a psychic.

lmfao

What? The other Metal gears worked without a psychic, that's why they are more technologically advanced. They also had a cockpit that wsdn't too small for a normal person.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 23, 2020 1:04:09 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 23, 2020 1:00:02 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Well I guess it was more advanced, precisely because you needed a special person and without that person it couldn't work. That person being a psychic.

lmfao

What? The other Metal gears worked without a psychic, that's why they are more technologically advanced. They also had a cockpit that wsdn't too small for a normal person.

Then what would you say about Excelsus? Is it a legit Metal Gear threat, now that we know that it CANNOT fire a nuke?

[A.G.]

Psychic or not, functional or not, it was a transformer. It was Rex in basically storage mode and was designed to transform into something from ZOE. And that whip. Cmon. There is not justification to that tech predating Rex and Ray.

Love theory about Elen Madnar though! Sadly in the briefing Raiden says “he saved my life”. Still, wish Snake reacted to it. It did make my day that an MSX cast member played a part in MGS4.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 23, 2020 1:25:34 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Psychic or not, functional or not, it was a transformer. It was Rex in basically storage mode and was designed to transform into something from ZOE. And that whip. Cmon. There is not justification to that tech predating Rex and Ray.

Love theory about Elen Madnar though! Sadly in the briefing Raiden says “he saved my life”. Still, wish Snake reacted to it. It did make my day that an MSX cast member played a part in MGS4.

As I was saying, would you think that Excelsus is a true MG threat?

[A.G.]

Don’t know much about it. Is it from Acid or Rising? Didn’t play Rising and never finished Acid.

[Cerberus_0408]

Rising it's y'know, ninja Raiden. The last boss

[fgdj2000]

May 23, 2020 1:25:34 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Psychic or not, functional or not, it was a transformer. It was Rex in basically storage mode and was designed to transform into something from ZOE.

So? If it didn't work it's a waste of money on a scientist's wet dream. Sure, the design was more advanced than TX-55, but if it didn't work and couldn't accommodate a regular sized human, it's a failure.

Speaking of which, I also think REX was much bigger than Sahelanthropus, about the same size as the upright sahelantrhropus, but wider, more massive.

And that whip. Cmon. There is not justification to that tech predating Rex and Ray.

Yeah, that whip is a stretch (no pun intended), but maybe you can say it was impractical? So good aiming, not enough range, danger to damage/ destroy ones own troops. Hence, it wasn't further developed. Also, this isn't the first time in Metal Gear lore that a piece of weapon is missing from a later model: Metal Gear RAY was non-nuclear. The key feature of Metal Gears up until that point was missing!

Love theory about Elen Madnar though! Sadly in the briefing Raiden says “he saved my life”. Still, wish Snake reacted to it. It did make my day that an MSX cast member played a part in MGS4.

Oh, well... At least, the Japanese can still have that dream

[Cerberus_0408]

May 23, 2020 1:04:09 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 23, 2020 1:00:02 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Well I guess it was more advanced, precisely because you needed a special person and without that person it couldn't work. That person being a psychic.

lmfao

What? The other Metal gears worked without a psychic, that's why they are more technologically advanced. They also had a cockpit that wsdn't too small for a normal person.

I tried to ask you if Excelsus was considered a real MG threat.
But you still didn't respond.

[fgdj2000]

May 23, 2020 2:05:24 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

May 23, 2020 1:04:09 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

What? The other Metal gears worked without a psychic, that's why they are more technologically advanced. They also had a cockpit that wsdn't too small for a normal person.

I tried to ask you if Excelsus was considered a real MG threat.
But you still didn't respond.

It’s a weird question. Of course it’s a real MG threat, but the canonically of the game in the saga is debatable. So, within its own story, yes, it’s a real threat.