fgdj2000
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Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on May 23, 2020 5:37:17 GMT -5
Well that’s my point. What takes presence, release order or chronological order. Can you retcon the final chapter of the series with a game that takes place before it? Generally, contradictions are to be avoided, but I know it from long-standing franchises, that this is almost impossible, since the focus is always the new story and that story, its characters, its themes take precedence over staying true to - lets face it - made-up fantasy facts and fake-histories, which can get quickly outdated especially in sci-fi franchises. For instance, we didn't have a Nikita or a Cyborg Ninja in 2005. However, if retcons happen, in my experience, release order takes precedence, meaning the latest version of the story is the truest one. Basically the revisionist approach. You see that in Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel (comics and films), DC, and Metal Gear as well. A simple example from say The Simpsons. They exist always "now", but never age. So, Homer is always 36, Bart is always 10 and Lisa always 8. When the show first came out in 1990, flashback episodes would show Homer becoming a father in 1980 and 1982 respectively. Just a ew seasons later, flashbacks were adjusted and read "1983" and "1985" as Bart and Lisa's birth years, respectively, during Season 3 or 4 (1993). Nowadays, Bart was born in 2010, Lisa in 2012. So basically, the latest version is the canonical one until it's replaced by a later version. This is at least when it comes to official canon, but you can always choose to ignore that, of course, and make up your own head-canon. (For instance, most older fans agree, that Simpsons ended between seasons 8 and 12 and that current show just a lookalike show with terrible scripts ^^). It is different for auteur-driven franchises, which strongly reflect the vision of a single person, rather than a team of writers, designers and other creative people over time. For instance, until 2012 Star Wars was an auteur-driven franchise with George Lucas in charge. So, he was always free to call the shots when it comes to canon and usually not the latest version of the franchise, but the one he most closely worked on and/ or condones is the truest version. So, for Star Wars, that were the 6 films and the 2008 Clone Wars series. Whenever there were contradictions, "his" version of the story was seen as "true". That's what applied to Metal Gear as well, until 2015 at least. So, technically Metal Gear Survive is canon xD, but I and many others still see it as an auteur-franchise and simply refuse to accept anything done by Konami without him. TL;DR: Release order takes precedence and with auteur-driven franchises like Metal Gear or Star Wars pre-2013, it's what the auteur is most closely involved with and basically what he says. But there is always head-canon. |
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Post by A.G. on May 23, 2020 10:56:19 GMT -5
Logical. But then you definitely run the risk of the entire series not making sense. If MGS4 contradicts MGS2, for example, that’s still acceptable since MGS4 is the ending. It’s the resolution to the overall plot. But then if you release new titles after it and they contradict MGS4, how can the story as whole make sense? Seems to me that in order for things to work retcons can only happen in chronological order.
Using Star Wars again as an example. Rouge One added a lot of new info but it fit within the existing story as told in New Hope. But what if in that film they decided to spice things up and showed Vader discovering that Padme had two kids? Is that now canon? Because in Return Of The Jedi he didn’t know about Luke’s sister until the end. Seemingly a minor thing but logically in contradicts a later installment. And would logically impact Vader’s actions in New Nope and Empire Strikes Back.
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fgdj2000
Elite (level 2)
Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
Posts: 588
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Post by fgdj2000 on May 27, 2020 9:12:00 GMT -5
Logical. But then you definitely run the risk of the entire series not making sense. If MGS4 contradicts MGS2, for example, that’s still acceptable since MGS4 is the ending. It’s the resolution to the overall plot. But then if you release new titles after it and they contradict MGS4, how can the story as whole make sense? Seems to me that in order for things to work retcons can only happen in chronological order. I think bad retcons should be avoided, no matter whether it's the last chronological installment or somewhere in the middle. Generally with the last installment, it's often easier to explain discrepancies away once and for all, since the middle part doesn't know things "will" contradict later on (One example: In Star Trek, the Klingons used to have flat foreheads, until their appearance got changed. When they appeared in a prequel later with that new appearance, everybody screamed "continuity!", but of course, no character in the show knew that the appearance would change down the line, so there was no story reason to bring the change up... until they did actually explain it in a later episode... before another prequel completely changed the Klingon's appearance again, so drastically it couldn't be reconciled with either the original nor the later appearance). However, I consider myself a smart human being who knows that I am experiencing a work of fiction tailored to a piece of media that, over time, changes and requires things to be adapted, so I can make concessions, when a recent prequel (Star Trek Discovery) to a fifty year old show (Star Trek The Original Series), set less than a decade earlier, presents much more futuristic tech than the old show was ever able to, due to budget and simply technological limitations. Similarly, I can also forgive more advanced mechs and a bigger presented Outer Heaven in a 2015 with much more technological capabilities and much more complex controls and a highly expanded skill set, that "break canon" as a prequel to a game from 1987 which was released on hardware that even for its time was severely limited. That's a severe breach, but a) I feel this was already done in MGS4 and b) the lore breaks in MGSV (and MPW) weren't that severe to me and even "helped" the earlier retcons imo, as I've stated numerous times before, sometimes explained in detail. In the end, I guess you're right, it is about preferences. If the retcons in MGS4 didn't bother you, further complicating the continuity with MPW and MGSV doesn't do it for you, and wouldn't do it for me, either. Also, to me, continuity is important, but not that important. If I want a perfect continuity, I'd read history - then again, do you know how complicated and intertwined and messy history can sometimes be? xD |
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Post by A.G. on May 27, 2020 10:24:56 GMT -5
How did MGS4 do it? If you are referring to the MGS3 support crew becoming Patriots that’s not really contradicting anything. Strange move, sure. But it’s not directly breaking anything. I also didn’t think Vamp had any issues. Sure, nano explanation was more focused on his healing. But his other powers resembled The Fear so I don’t think there is an issue there. What else? Madnar? I mean, a character dying on screen and then coming back is nothing new. While I agree that MGS4 made some strange explanation choices, I actually don’t think it was that bad with retcons.
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fgdj2000
Elite (level 2)
Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on May 28, 2020 9:11:59 GMT -5
To quote Super Bunny Hop, it felt like "a contrivance for the sake of convenience". It was an easy way to connect all the dots, that, you think about it, made no real sense. It made everything too convenient. On top of that, it muddled Big Boss' motives. I you play MG2 and Big Boss explains his warped "system" of war, that was interesting. He was a former soldier who became disillusioned with his country and eventually kind of lost it. He felt, war brought out the best in people and so came up with the crazy system of fueling a war, swooping in to save the orphans, raising them to be soldiers and fueling the next war, rinse repeat. He was kind of right. Governments, particularly the American government, kind of do the same, so why shouldn't he do it? He just doesn't hide behind nice words and agendas. MGS1 added to that by having him perceived sometimes even as a hero who rescued e.g. Sniper Wolf of Frank Jaeger from a war zone (even if he followed his own motives).
MGS3 gave us a glimpse how he came to that philosophy and how he became disillusioned with his government. It didn't exactly show his descent, but I think we can agree, that he was Clearly set on course to become the man he was in the MSX games. And then came MGS4.
Suddenly it was about him wanting to fulfill the will of The Boss... which, wasn't she pretty much a pacifist (as far as a soldier can be)? Her philosophy was clearly outlined at the end of MGS3 - follow the times, be loyal to the end, even if you know how arbitrary conflicts can be. It is not your place to question it or change the world, but rather to live by example. And how can this be bastardized into what Big Boss outlined in MG2? That didn't work for me. On top o that, EVA herself says, Big Boss "plotted coup d'etat against Zero" - so, now Outer Heaven was some kind of rebellion against the Patriots and Zero? Nevermind how tough it was to reconcile the MGS3 supporting-cast's "heel turn" (for simplicity's sake, I know it's more complex than that). I just felt what was said about Big Boss in MGS4 was hard to reconcile with what he said and did in MG2.
MPW fixed it for me, by establishing that BB rejected The Boss and did his own thing and MGSV depicted Zero and BB on much more amicable terms than MGS4 suggested which reconciled these discrepancies for me (mostly).
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Post by A.G. on May 28, 2020 10:55:20 GMT -5
A lot to unpack here. lol First, the Bunny Hop quote wasn’t just about MGS4. It was about all the games after MGS3. That includes Peace Walker. Second, what you outlined isn’t an actual contradiction. It’s an explanation that you didn’t like. But there isn’t really a contradiction there. Which is where I’m coming from. But before I dive into that, this:
And MPW didn’t? Solid Snake and Otacon are friends. Let’s make their dads friends too and they will look and sound the same. Have his dad work on Metal Gears too. Oh, and Otacon’s mom (granted more an MGS5 reveal) will also be The Boss’ lover. When it comes to connecting dots and making everything too convenient, MPW and MGS5 are just as guilty, if not more guilty, as MGS4.
Well, except that Big Boss never said that he was trying to follow her will. For that matter neither does Zero. Eva says this in Act 3, but I think you are taking her words literally. I never have which is why this isn’t an issue in my eyes. Let me try to reframe this. I’ll keep the MPW and MGS5 events out of it.
> Big Boss - He is forced to kill his mentor and finds out that she accepted that fate as a part of her mission. Mission to the end without personal feelings. He knew that he could never do that. He did not view soldiers as expandable assets to be thrown away and as such being part of a set government wasn’t an option for him. He could never be part of a system, hence he broke apart from it to build his own vision. However, in a life as a mercenary with never ending conflict he went deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole until we see him trying to control war itself since he sees it as inevitable. And it all connects to his goal of having a place for soldiers. MGS4 ending shows him realizing that path was wrong.
> Zero - He wanted control. He wanted to make the world one through information control. This is exactly what puts him at odds with Big Boss. Big Boss could never be part of the control system that Zero wanted. Big Boss was the opposite. Two polar extremes. And if you look where their paths eventually led it’s very clear. Zero went as far as to control information on a global scale. If the entire world is one, there would be no more war. But also, no free will. Big Boss wanted perpetual war that he felt was necessary and inevitable. He also felt that war represented the ultimate form of expression.
> The Will of The Boss - this is only an issue if you take what Eva said in Act 3 as Zero and Big Boss trying to fulfill The Boss’ will. They weren’t. Each was executing their own vision that was influenced by their reverence for The Boss. Her being used and discarded for a mission fueled Big Boss’ vision. Her world without borders notion fueled Zero’s. But at no point did the two try to build her will. They had their own goals. I believe that’s the part that you interpreted differently. Neither Big Boss nor Zero actually tried to build The Boss’ vision. They were both inspired by her but they both had their own vision that they worked towards. And that’s the part that makes the most sense. To Zero she was a friend. To Big Boss she was a mentor. They both cared deeply for her but had opposing visions. Over decades and on that scale such a relationship could get very bitter.
For me it broke it. MGS4 states that both revered her. So Big Boss rejecting her doesn’t really make much sense. However, him rejecting her role as being a loyal soldier is logical. He chooses to build his own vision. As for Zero and Big Boss, I don’t see the plot working unless there was a war. Not a literal one, but more of a Cold War between them based on opposing ideologies. Without it there is no point to Outer Heaven and Big Boss coming back to FoxHound as a double agent. There would be no point to Zanzibar and raiding nuclear bases. Big Boss’ PMC concept makes the most sense when it’s created as an opposition to the control system Zero wanted to build.
But more on topic, I don’t see how MGS4 breaks the lore. It doesn’t. Sure, not all answers were ideal, but they all fit from a logical chronology. And it makes the Patriot AI War Economy plot so perfect for the conclusion of the saga. The AIs basically combined Zero’s global control concept with Big Boss’ perpetual war concept. And the end result was a monster that was a polar opposite of The Boss’ noble ideals. It works beautifully.
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fgdj2000
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Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 1, 2020 3:01:42 GMT -5
That particular quote was about the reveal who the Patriots are in MGS4. I know he isn’t the biggest fan of MPW and MGSV, but he also admitted that those games did rectify some of it.
Yeah, that Huey bit irked me in MPW to be honest, which is why I like Huey's heel turn in MGSV so much. I don’t think Strangelove was actually The Boss’ lover, but rather a “fanboy“. While I am not completely disagreeing with you here (in fact, I think Eli was completely wasted in MGSV and shouldn’t have been there, so where Volgin and Mantis), these were small fan-service things in the end. The reveal of the true identity of the Patriots on the other hand - come on. It’s not a contradiction, but it’s akin to revealing Jar Jar Binks as the true villain of the Star Wars saga in the end of Episode IX, who had manipulated everything and is now ready to unleash his fleet on the galaxy. And as for taking EVA’s account too literally - well, I have to say a lot of her account makes no sense when you think about it. What does „making Big Boss Zero’s icon“ actually mean? Does he want to make him the figurehead? The President? What about the clones? According to Eva they were made to replace Big Boss as that icon? I mean, sure, Solidus was President for a while, so I guess that was the plan, but that doesn’t really make as much sense as the original explanation of just creating the perfect soldier. And again, reframing the entire saga - Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land, Shadow Moses and even Big Shell as the war between Zero and Big Boss just contradicts what came before. Why didn’t Big Boss tell Snake what was really going on? Maybe Snake would have joined him at least in Zanzibar. Why did Ocelot use this convoluted scheme and hypnotize himself into becoming Liquid’s mental doppelganger? To fool the system? But wouldn’t it better if the patriots still thought him loyal? To me, all these explanations raise a lot of questions, that you might answer with some mental gymnastics, but still show that Kojima is forcing connections that never were meant to be there.
Many of these questions (at least the ones regarding Big Boss, Outer Heaven and Zero) were alleviated for me in MGSPW and MGSV.
Isn't this exactly what Peace Walker shows?
I don't think MPW and MGSV undo this. It just fleshes out the relationship, adds a bit of irony and complexity (Zero still revered Big Boss enough to go out of his way to save his life, but to his orginasation Outer Heaven was a threat). Also, by the time Big Boss came out of the coma, Zero was already a vegetable and Donald Anderson was overseeing construction of the A.I.'s. He clearly didn't know how dear Big Boss was to Zero. It plays into the whole "misrepresenting one's will" theme in MGS4. Personally, Zero as depicted in the Truth tapes was - for me - a much needed bit of connective tissue between the likable Bond-fan/ spy master in MGS3 and the control freak with an eye for world domination he was said to be in MGS4.
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Post by A.G. on Jun 3, 2020 10:21:20 GMT -5
But without Zero, the Patriots threat would’ve ended in MGS1. Eva and Ocelot were siding with Big Boss all along. Mara medic was killed in 2003. Sigint was killed in 2005 at Shadow Moses. So the Patriots would’ve been done. We already know the AI control wasn’t final until MGS2. Zero had to be active.
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fgdj2000
Elite (level 2)
Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 3, 2020 13:37:08 GMT -5
I figured, the A.I.s become gradually operational during the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s and take over Cipher (I gather from MPW and MGSV that the Patriots were originally called Cipher and the A.I.s were called "Patriots" - and when the Patriots took over Cipher, Cipher basically was the Patriots and took the name from the A.I.s). So by 2005 they've taken over enough to lead the organisation and MGS2's GW was the final A.I. to go online in 2009, but since that was basically destroyed with Emma's virus, the other four stayed in control until 2014.
(Side thought: I think GW's purpose was to basically understand human emotions . Maybe, if Snake and Raiden hadn't taken out GW the whole SOP system would have gone a whole lot different...)
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