How did you start in the Metal Gear franchise?

[murrdogg93]

PW is actually really fun in co-op. Playing it that way makes it really stand out from the rest since it's the only co-op game in the series.

I could argue evidence that the Ground Zeroes we play isn't the actual Big Boss at all. But it's Venom Snake reliving that memory implanted into his mind, during his coma. It makes more sense to me from that perspective, based on evidence I have seen.

I started over TPP for the third time recently. Its mission structure allows me to play something without risking being late to work. But this time, I plan on keeping my mother base built up & never starting from scratch again. 93 hours on my first save. Then 40+ hours on my second run. I don't want to do that for a fourth time.

I enjoy all of the Metal Gear Solid entries almost evenly.

MGS 3 has to be my favorite.
MGS 1 has my most playthroughs.
MGS 2, I appreciate the story, as long as I can look past some of the characters that I don't care for.
MGS 4, I enjoy the finality of it, the many trips down memory lane as Snake endures his final mission. So much so that I refused to buy MG Rising, even though I enjoy Platinum Games a lot.
MGS PW, I enjoy the co-op aspect a lot, making a unique experience that the rest can't give.
MGS V, I enjoy the smooth gameplay & the open world aspect, with cutscenes that are optional depending on how you play.

I never played MG 1 or MG 2. But have seen playthroughs of them.

[A.G.]

Completely agree on the note about Rising! I tried the demo but refused to play the full game.

BTW, fun fact, Gray Fox technically makes MGS5 not canon. 🙂 It’s true. In MG2 he tells Snake after their fight about his history with Big Boss. They first met when Big Boss rescued Fox as a prisoner in Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam war. Well, the war ended in April of 1975, one month after Big Boss fell into a comma in Ground Zeroes. So... Big Boss could not have met Gray Fox. But I can’t imagine Fox would forget that meeting given his loyalty to Big Boss. Same fact renders MPO not canon since the two meet in that game in 1970.

[fgdj2000]

Feb 26, 2021 0:08:26 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Completely agree on the note about Rising! I tried the demo but refused to play the full game.

BTW, fun fact, Gray Fox technically makes MGS5 not canon. 🙂 It’s true. In MG2 he tells Snake after their fight about his history with Big Boss. They first met when Big Boss rescued Fox as a prisoner in Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam war. Well, the war ended in April of 1975, one month after Big Boss fell into a comma in Ground Zeroes. So... Big Boss could not have met Gray Fox. But I can’t imagine Fox would forget that meeting given his loyalty to Big Boss. Same fact renders MPO not canon since the two meet in that game in 1970.

Oh get over it   Also, "after the end of the Vietnam War" can technically mean 1985, maybe while John J. Rambo was also there mowing down former Vietcong. 

Or we go all PythonSelkan and start theorizing that there are two Gray Foxes, the phantom Gray Fox, who was killed in Outer Heaven after chilling out in his cell too much and the future Cyborg Ninja. xD 
And the more I think about that theory, the less it works, since at least "Null", MG2 Gray Fox and Cyborg Ninja Gray Fox all have to be the same person, despite contradicting origin stories. But I guess since I'm a Star Trek fan and have learned to deal with them completely overhauling the look and feel of the series for no reason other than modernizing the aesthetic, I guess I can easily deal with this discrepancy 

[murrdogg93]

I remember reading an interview asking of Kojima would be interested in remaking the MSX games. Or at least MG 1. He said yes because he would like to correct any story related issues there.

So maybe he planned on changing when they met. Maybe to be closer to when Naomi met them in the 1980's. But either way, we will never know.

I never considered Portable Ops as canon at all. Not even written by Kojima. Even he has stated only the few overall bullet points of the story have any canon too it. The details & meat of how the story happens is not canon, according to Kojima himself.

Fox Unit going rogue, Big Boss getting resources from Gene to start his private army at the end & Zero starting the Patriots are the only canon moments really.

I just watched the fight & in the version of the game I have, within MGS 3, it doesn't say he was there after the war. It only says he was in Vietnam as forced labor. But a different version of the game does say they were in forced labor even after the war. So perhaps that was already altered?

I know it's possible because MG 1 in the HD Collection has Big Boss tell Solid Snake to turn off the PlayStation 3.

[A.G.]

Both the PS3 and the MSX versions have that line. Vietnam, after the war.

At 3:57


At 6:44


As for “after the war could be 1985”, that kinda clashes with the second rescue in Mozambique and the Naomi backstory. 😜

Still, nothing is a bigger contradictions than the fact that MGS5 showed there was no war between Zero and Big Boss. But MGS4 clearly states there was. Gotta go with MGS4 since it’s the ending chapter. 😁

At 14:44


In MGS5 Big Boss heard the Zero’s tapes in 1984. Zero was braindead by the time the 90s started. So how can he plot a rebellion with Outer Heaven against an enemy who is not even there anymore? Not to mention seeing how Zero saved him after Ground Zeroes. It’s not a mistake, it’s not a small detail... MGS4 and MGS5 don’t fit together. It would be like if Star Wars Episode 3 showed Palpatine and Yoda as friends instead of enemies.

[fgdj2000]

I'm honestly tired of this discussion. I don't think there is a contradiction and it's obvious EVA didn't have all the information. I also think the entire sequence has issues, for instance I think it's weird she is so visibly upset over the burning of Solidus' body (seemingly believing it to be Big Boss' body) when she clearly knew what was really going on. Metal Gear post MGS3 was already a mess and I don't mind a little more convolutedness if this means I get games like MGSPW and MGSV that were imo really, really good.

I guess it's like you always say: pick the part of the franchise that you like and stick to it. It's a free country... or countries (as the current users seem to be posting from the USA, Europe and China).

[A.G.]

I view Eva as a credible source. She was part of the Patriots the longest of anyone in the original group. It’s not a little contradiction, it’s a deliberate change to the fundamental structure of the overall series plot. Without a conflict with Zero, what was Big Boss rebelling against? You can’t have an incorrect description of the overall story in the last chapter. MGS4 positioned the conflict between Big Boss and Zero as the core of the overall plot. Like it or not, agree with it or not, that’s what is stated by the last chapter in the story. MGS5 doesn’t fit with that.

Again, I’m not saying that MGS4 has the better plot or explanation. I’m also not saying that you can’t enjoy MGS5, or even it prefer it over MGS4. I’m saying MGS4 and MGS5 can’t exist in the same timeline. That’s not an opinion. One said everything was based on a conflict. The other showed there was no conflict. As another Star Wars reference, it would be the equivalent of Rogue One showing that there was no Empire vs Rebellion conflict and that Palpatine was good friends with Princess Leia. Maybe even saved her life after an accident... 😷 It just doesn’t work.

[fgdj2000]

Feb 28, 2021 12:16:06 GMT -5 A.G. said:

I view Eva as a credible source. She was part of the Patriots the longest of anyone in the original group. It’s not a little contradiction, it’s a deliberate change to the fundamental structure of the overall series plot. Without a conflict with Zero, what was Big Boss rebelling against? You can’t have an incorrect description of the overall story in the last chapter. MGS4 positioned the conflict between Big Boss and Zero as the core of the overall plot. Like it or not, agree with it or not, that’s what is stated by the last chapter in the story. MGS5 doesn’t fit with that.

How does it not fit with that? The two still clearly were in conflict. That doesn't contradict that Zero saved Big Boss. People are complex. And both MGS4 and PW stressed that ultimately Zero wanted Big Boss WITH him more than destroy him, which is why he cloned him. Big Boss never worked with Zero in MGSV. Also, the whole thing was clearly highly classified even for Zero/Cipher standards. Probably only Zero, Ocelot and Big Boss even knew about it. By the time Venom wakes up and the events of TPP (or MG1 or MG2) happen, clearly Zero was no longer involved, but the Patriots (the A.I.s) were rising (supervised by Anderson). I doubt that EVA knew about this. That's my opinion. Yours is, she probably would have. So, this is how we disagree.

I’m saying MGS4 and MGS5 can’t exist in the same timeline. That’s not an opinion. One said everything was based on a conflict. The other showed there was no conflict. As another Star Wars reference, it would be the equivalent of Rogue One showing that there was no Empire vs Rebellion conflict and that Palpatine was good friends with Princess Leia. Maybe even saved her life after an accident... 😷 It just doesn’t work.

It is your opinion! A Star Wars analogy would be to learn that Hux was loyal to the First Order but secretly helped the Resistance because he disliked Kylo Ren... oh, wait, that happened! I also pointed out numerous times how MGS4 revealing the whole series was basically a constant conflict between Zero and Big Boss, between the Patriots and Outer Heaven, did contradict (or at least not work smoothly) with things said and done in pre-MGS4 games, especially Big Boss' behavior and what he says in MG2.

And to be honest, who cares? It is a story and what really matters isn't how exactly the entirely made-up fictional history fits together. What matters is that Big Boss wanted to create a world where soldiers would always have a place and that those are actually quite interesting motives. How MGS3 comments on the arbitrariness of the concept of enemy at any given time and how transient the idea of "the enemy" is. It's not about whether or not REX is more advanced than ZEKE, it's about how your genes do not shape who you are, and how something good (an army to fight for those who can't defend themselves) is transformed into something grotesque (a nuclear superpower controlled by what could be described a cult of personality) and how your desire for revenge can give you strength and direction, but once the object of revenge is dealt with, everything you have done suddenly becomes meaningless and empty, without anything truly important to do).

That's what is worth focussing on, not how all the arbitrary pieces fit together (although it can be fun splitting hairs about them). And I believe that's why you and I care about this series in the first place. And I honestly think that would be the more worthwhile discussion.

Again, I’m not saying that MGS4 has the better plot or explanation. I’m also not saying that you can’t enjoy MGS5, or even it prefer it over MGS4.

Yeah, I got that. Personally, I disagree, because the events of MGSV are clearly so secretive that not even EVA could have known about it. To me this is like (Warning, Star Wars analogy) splitting hairs over why a piece of wreckage of the Death Star II is on another Endor moon when we clearly saw the Death Star be utterly vaporized in Return of the Jedi. (And they actually came up with an explanation btw.) What's important is the symbolism and the story and the themes.

[A.G.]

You can’t get around facts. 🧐 Zero was braindead in the 80s according to MGS5. Which means there was no war. No conflict after the parasite bullsh*t. It doesn’t matter what else happened in MGS5. All that matters is it showed that Zero wasn’t a factor anymore. That’s what kills it! You can’t brush off what Eva says in MGS4. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like it because it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a fact. She said it. She specifically says Big Boss built Outer Heaven to have an uprising against Zero. It’s in the final chapter of the series and therefore can’t be disputed. Even if you like the MGS5 explanation more, it doesn’t change the fact that it disputes the story presented in MGS4.

And to be honest, who cares? It is a story and what really matters isn't how exactly the entirely made-up fictional history fits together.

When a series prides itself on slavish attention to detail and then just turns around and contradicts the ending chapter... yeah, it matters. I think it boils down to one of two timelines you can pick from:

MGS3, MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS2, MGS4 (Big Boss vs Zero timeline)

or

MGS3, MPW, MGS5, MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS2 (soldiers without borders timeline)

[fgdj2000]

I disagree. And we'll never see eye-to-eye on this. And that's fine.
Although I want to take a moment here to tell you how much I like your main MGF site (aside from how it views MGS PW and MGSV, but it's your site).

[A.G.]

Part of it is my career really kicked off in 2011. So in addition to disliking the direction Kojima was taking the series into I also didn’t have time for it. Plus being about as hardcore of a fan as one can get, I was kinda done with it after a decade. The site, the collecting, the series exploration discussions... after 10 years I was ready to step away. And MGS4 gave me a good reason to. It felt complete. I still remember August 2009 when that teaser site of MPW and Rising launched with the two faces. My heart sank. lol That’s when I knew I was done. Unlike all other announcements I felt 0 excitement. My fist thought was “why?” I became much more interested in Uncharted. 2008-09 was a handoff period. Snake passing the torch to Nate. 😁

[fgdj2000]

Yeah, I see. For me, while I never lost interest in the series and Kojima, I discovered a lot of other games and game series and broadened my horizon in that regard and as such, while I still would consider Metal Gear my favorite series of them, it also is no longer my be-all-end-all video game experience. I've played plenty of games that did far worse than Metal Gear and have seen how a game series playing it safe can ultimately funnel it into mediocrity (Assassin's Creed became my 2nd favorite game series in around 2011, but now, I have absolutely no interest in this series anymore, and you know how forgiving I can be).

And since I started working as a teacher I had less and less time for gaming, or rather, I had other things that felt more worthwhile spending time on. As you say, you have different priorities eventually.

I do also really like the Uncharted games btw. They are really fun. And Uncharted 4 was as good a conclusion this series can get. I have yet to play Lost Legacy though.

[A.G.]

Lost Legacy is good. Not great, but fun. Love the silenced pistol!

Chloe is a great lead, but needs Nate to play off. Nadine is too stiff and boring. A little heavy on the girl power too. But overall I enjoyed it.

I was very nervous about Uncharted 4 ending, but man! Did they ever hit it out if the park! One of my favorite endings. Like happy tears great. When Elena looks at that photo from the first game... man... feels! It’s also special because my wife and I share this game. We played all of them as they came out together. It was OUR series. So it was a special ending for sure!

[fgdj2000]

Yeah, I absolutely loved the happy end(ing hihi) Nate and Elena got. The house was also fantastically designed. I wanted to explore every single corner.

[A.G.]

Dreading when they inevitably do Uncharted 5 and “subvert” some expectations... Uncharted 2 style.