Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 21, 2015 16:04:56 GMT -5
I think the part you don’t comprehend is that it's not about having fun or whatnot. It's what the Metal Gear name is attached to. Personally Metal Gear games have a specific feel and style to them that makes them Metal Gear games. It's found in characters, in story, in animation, in music, etc. I love the Uncharted series, for example, or the Street Fighter series. They all have certain elements to them that make them what they are. I'm not a fan of shooters, but I like Uncharted. I'm not big on fighting games, but I love Street Fighter. It's all about that unique "it" factor that these games have that create a loyaly fan base. And good or bad, attaching a Metal Gear name to a random game that has a completely different personality does not make it a Metal Gear game.
Oh, I will. Which is why I don't just mindlessly waste money on an entry that is bullsh*t to the rest of the series. Unlike some dumb f...ckers out there who purchase whatever has the 'Metal Gear' label slapped on it.
Move along, dude. Go back to play Fruit Ninj…oh sh*t I mean Rising.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 21, 2015 17:23:32 GMT -5
Ignore the factual canon. Enjoy the thematic canon! That's where the true beef lies.
If you need an explenation so badly, what if REX was so heavily armored (no missile could do him any harm, remember?) that it slowed him down. Or what if Liquid, arrogant as he was, was just toying with Solid and before he realised it, had a big blow.
btw. I've just been playing through the Big Mama part again in MGS4, and so far nothing really contradicts anything here.
Seriously, why did Snake say, Big Boss told him in Zanzibar Land that he was his father, when in fact he did not in the actual Metal Gear 2? I'm saying discontinuity has been part of the Metal Gear series ever since and I think it is ridiculous to bash his later games SOLELY on the basis that it violates the canon.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 21, 2015 17:32:32 GMT -5
I think the part you don’t comprehend is that it's not about having fun or whatnot. It's what the Metal Gear name is attached to. Personally Metal Gear games have a specific feel and style to them that makes them Metal Gear games. It's found in characters, in story, in animation, in music, etc. I love the Uncharted series, for example, or the Street Fighter series. They all have certain elements to them that make them what they are. I'm not a fan of shooters, but I like Uncharted. I'm not big on fighting games, but I love Street Fighter. It's all about that unique "it" factor that these games have that create a loyaly fan base. And good or bad, attaching a Metal Gear name to a random game that has a completely different personality does not make it a Metal Gear game. Oh, I will. Which is why I don't just mindlessly waste money on an entry that is bullsh*t to the rest of the series. Unlike some dumb f...ckers out there who purchase whatever has the 'Metal Gear' label slapped on it. Move along, dude. Go back to play Fruit Ninj…oh sh*t I mean Rising. Yeah, unlike some hardbitten s*ckers out there I don't have to take everything about a game series so seriously and bash anything that's not to my narrow frame of mind about what this series should be. First off, I didn't buy it. It was a present from my girlfriend. Secondly, it does have a lot to do with the series. It takes all the crazy stuff in Metal Gear (Cyborg Ninjas, Mechs, Superpowered bosses) and makes one crazy game out of it. If you expect that to be exactly like the other games, it's like expecting "Better Call Saul" to be exactly like "Breaking Bad". There are connections and similarities, but they are still completely different shows and stand on their own. You don't have to like it. But bashing it (and people who do like it) without really having played it is just weak. |
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Cerberus_0408
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Now playing MGS HD Collection and wanting Metal Gear Legacy Collection
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 21, 2015 18:25:55 GMT -5
First point: MGS4 has awful writing and answers. Far as I'm concerned I hated how said game made it seem like Big Boss's entire life had just been about realising his interpretation of The Boss's will - to me this killed his character and made it seem like The Boss, a character initially introduced to explain the origins of Big Boss - the important one - was stealing his limelight in the saga. Thats just how I personally felt about it. And it created a huge problem - what Big Boss was trying to do in the MG1/MG2 years, create a world of endless conflict where warriors will always have a place - cant possibly be construed as an interpretation of The Boss's will. Even if its a misinterpretation of her will it makes no sense, its that simple.
Second point: Y'know, I like this part from Game Informer...
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 21, 2015 23:26:19 GMT -5
First point: MGS4 has awful writing and answers. Far as I'm concerned I hated how said game made it seem like Big Boss's entire life had just been about realising his interpretation of The Boss's will - to me this killed his character and made it seem like The Boss, a character initially introduced to explain the origins of Big Boss - the important one - was stealing his limelight in the saga. Thats just how I personally felt about it. And it created a huge problem - what Big Boss was trying to do in the MG1/MG2 years, create a world of endless conflict where warriors will always have a place - cant possibly be construed as an interpretation of The Boss's will. Even if its a misinterpretation of her will it makes no sense, its that simple. Second point: Y'know, I like this part from Game Informer... Lucky you, there is Peace Walker as the actual "missing link" where Big Boss actually rejects The Boss' will at the end to make up his own philosophy. And Eva just got it wrong in the MGS4 years which again fits very well with the Misinterpretation theme going on in that game. Some useless filler, ain't it? Not to defend MGS4's writing though. I also wasn't the biggest fan of some of the retcons there, but it didn't bother me as much as some other fans apparently. As for your Game Informer quote: what's the point of you posting some reviewer's opinion here? He can have his opinion on the subject and yeah, he's got a point, there are better games of the type out there, but not being the best game out there doesn't mean that it's a bad game. At least that reviewer has played the game and is informed enough to actually form an opinion. You know, I have no problem with people disliking the game, I just have a problem with people bashing a spin off when they haven't actually played it. |
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fgdj2000
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Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 21, 2015 23:52:07 GMT -5
I think the part you don’t comprehend is that it's not about having fun or whatnot. It's what the Metal Gear name is attached to. Personally Metal Gear games have a specific feel and style to them that makes them Metal Gear games. It's found in characters, in story, in animation, in music, etc. I love the Uncharted series, for example, or the Street Fighter series. They all have certain elements to them that make them what they are. I'm not a fan of shooters, but I like Uncharted. I'm not big on fighting games, but I love Street Fighter. It's all about that unique "it" factor that these games have that create a loyaly fan base. And good or bad, attaching a Metal Gear name to a random game that has a completely different personality does not make it a Metal Gear game. I understand, I don't really like other stealth games for instance. But to me, part of the Metal Gear brand is also that the spin ofss just don't copy and paste the gameplay of the main series, but experiment with the formula and at times stretch it to its limits. Remember Metal Gear Acid? Personally, I didn't like it, but I liked that it didn't try to just be a downgraded Metal Gear Solid. And I don't feel the need to bash people who do like these games. Rising was rooted in the Metal Gear brand. It's a game about playing a cyborg ninja! The thing about spin-offs is that imo opinions they try to do something new with the brand. They are not sequels, they are no straight evolution, but they are sidetracks going in totally different directions. Metal Gear Rising isn't the best game out there of its kind, but it has a solid fighting system, solid graphics (60 fps, no given on PS3 games) and all you need for a story to give context to slashing apart enemies in a stylish way. It's got the basis for sequels to build on. As a sidebranch of the Metal Gear franchise. Or just remain the standalone experiment it is right now. Who cares? It's not Metal Gear Solid, but it doesn't want or need to be. You know what? Since you have quoted a negative review, I'll go ahead and post this link: youtu.be/ToQEVnhGyPsThis is a pretty decent review of the game that mirrors my experience I had with this game. In short, it's a solid game, but has its flaws. |
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Post by A.G. on Jun 22, 2015 1:21:56 GMT -5
I hate typing this out again, but...
Why do I dislike Peace Walker (and MGS5):
Plot holes - yes, I know the series is full of them. Though the earlier mentioned Snake being told Big Boss is his father in Zanzibar is not true. Snake never said in MGS1 that he found this out in Zanzibar. For all we know he knew about it before Outer Heaven. But that's not important. None of these small inconsistencies matter and can simply be attributed to certain characters not having all the info. Like for example Liquid saying that Big Boss was in his late 50's when they created his copies. Things like that don't bother me. I'm bothered by the big things:
Peace Walker and Zeke being more technologically advanced in 1974 than TX-55 and D in the 90's. Hell, Rex in 2005 wasn't even that mobile. Zeke was bouncing around as well as Ray and had technology to deflect missiles. How is TX-55 a revolutionary threat in 1995 when Metal Gears were bigger, faster, and more advanced in the 70's and 80's? Playing these games chronologically now lessens the importance of earlier installments.
Everyone is connected and plot points rehashed. At first it was interesting but now it's like the later seasons of Friends, everyone eventually slept with everyone else. Snake and Otacon are partners... So were their dads, and they looked and sounded the same, and built a similar looking Metal Gear. Gimme a break! The Boss's death was a huge hit in MGS3... Let's bring her back as an AI... In 1974... Just to give Big Boss something to cry about. Liquid driving Rex in MGS1 was iconic... Let's have him do it 20 years prior in 1984 making his reveal in MGS1 irrelevant.
Big Boss vs Zero. If you go from MGS3 to MG1, it's perfect. You know Big Boss is pissed, but having him lead Foxhound in 1995 makes sense and you retain the big reveal as head of Outer Heaven, the only plot twist the game has. The less you know about him the better. Add Peace Walker and MGS5 and there is no reveal. Things also don't make sense. Why would Zero allow Big Boss to lead Foxhound when he knows he built Outer Heaven? How is TX55 a big deal when both the U.S. Government and Big Boss had this tech in the 70s and 80s? Why is development of Rex a big deal in 2005 when the CIA had Peace Walker in 1974 and a working Rex was active in 1984?
The part that I hate is that the new games are erasing the big reveals, watering down important moments, and exploiting emotional moments of the earlier games. MGS4 was partially guilty of this, but just on a few notes. Peace Walker and MGS5 are raping the series.
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Cerberus_0408
Elite (level 2)
Now playing MGS HD Collection and wanting Metal Gear Legacy Collection
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 22, 2015 8:20:47 GMT -5
Main problem I have with PW...
The player must now destroy the ultimate threat, a walking tank with nuclear capabilities. Outer Heaven is seen as dangerous and US calls FoxHound to stop it. Now, should you play the series in chronological order, MGS3 doesn’t interfere with that at all. The Shagohod is no walking tank. Even RAXA and the ICBMG from MPO is marginally excusable since neither is an actual bipedal tank; none can really “walk”. The thing is, MPW kills this plot element by having Peace Walker and Zeke 20 years prior. TX-55 cannot be considered a NEW threat in 1995. In NO way is the concept of a bipedal/nuclear tank new at that point. Even the notion of a renegade organization being in the possession of a weapon like that isn’t new since Big Boss establishes his base in the 70’s and got a walking tank with a nuke. Kojima, with the making of PW, effectively downplays the plot of MG1, MG2 and even MGS1. Why the bloody f...ck is it so goddamn significant that the US Army developed REX when the CIA made (at least) 3 Metal Gears in the 70’s...? The more Kojima makes of MGS the less I respect him.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 23, 2015 8:52:29 GMT -5
I hate typing this out again, but... I actually think, you love it. Peace Walker and Zeke being more technologically advanced in 1974 than TX-55 and D in the 90's. Hell, Rex in 2005 wasn't even that mobile. Zeke was bouncing around as well as Ray and had technology to deflect missiles. How is TX-55 a revolutionary threat in 1995 when Metal Gears were bigger, faster, and more advanced in the 70's and 80's? Playing these games chronologically now lessens the importance of earlier installments. You are missing the point. This is an inconsistency that largely stems from gameplay and the plot was adjusted to complement the gameplay. Of course a Mech that was intended to reflect 1980s gameplay and 1980s vision of the future. Of course, you can make an argument whether Peace Walker and Zeke had to be as advanced as they are in PW, but it's all done with the improved gameplay mechanics (rolling, free aim, armor, multiple weapons) and especially the Co-Ops in mind. It's a game and it knows it is. And I think it's sad that some people need to have it factually correct. The alternative would have been essentially Splinter Cell with just sneaking, no crazy technologies and overall a bland look and feel. But if you don't like the crazy antics of Metal Gear, maybe you are playing the wrong series. Everyone is connected and plot points rehashed. At first it was interesting but now it's like the later seasons of Friends, everyone eventually slept with everyone else. Snake and Otacon are partners... So were their dads, and they looked and sounded the same, and built a similar looking Metal Gear. Gimme a break! The Boss's death was a huge hit in MGS3... Let's bring her back as an AI... In 1974... Just to give Big Boss something to cry about. Liquid driving Rex in MGS1 was iconic... Let's have him do it 20 years prior in 1984 making his reveal in MGS1 irrelevant. Yeah, I can give you that point, especially on Otacon's dad. However, I think MGS4 went way further than anything in PW to interconnect and retcon everything. As for the whole A.I. plot. Of course, it wasn't really needed. Nothing past MGS2 was ever needed (as it was the legitimate conclusion of the series). I thought it added depth to him and actually cancelled a plothole from MGS4. In MG2 on MSX it was pretty clear BB has become a desillusioned warmonger, while in MGS4 it suddenly says, he misinterpreted the will of The Boss, while trying to fulfillit apparently. Now we learn, after her loss he is really thinking about what she gave her life for (as would I, if someone so close to me would sacrifice her life for politcal reasons like this) and over the course of the stroy, misinterprets her will, discards her and starts becoming the desillusioned warmoger of MG2 only to admit years later in MGS4 that she was right after all. Reducing the whole thing to "BB crying about The Boss" clearly shows, you didn't get it. Btw. people "crying about" stuff has been part of MGS ever since, so, again maybe you are playing the wrong games. And I take MPO out of the equasion, because less and less official material treats it as canon and its events clearly have little bearing on the overall series other than serving as setup of MGS4. It's like going crazy about the new Star Wars movie not respecting some odd comic book or novel in terms of canon. Big Boss vs Zero. If you go from MGS3 to MG1, it's perfect. You know Big Boss is pissed, but having him lead Foxhound in 1995 makes sense and you retain the big reveal as head of Outer Heaven, the only plot twist the game has. The less you know about him the better. Add Peace Walker and MGS5 and there is no reveal. Things also don't make sense. Why would Zero allow Big Boss to lead Foxhound when he knows he built Outer Heaven? How is TX55 a big deal when both the U.S. Government and Big Boss had this tech in the 70s and 80s? Why is development of Rex a big deal in 2005 when the CIA had Peace Walker in 1974 and a working Rex was active in 1984? The part that I hate is that the new games are erasing the big reveals, watering down important moments, and exploiting emotional moments of the earlier games. MGS4 was partially guilty of this, but just on a few notes. Peace Walker and MGS5 are raping the series. The games are not meant to be played in chronological order! It's like an anthology set of episodes that gradually reveal more and more about the happenigns in the MG world. So, this argument is really weak, imo. In fact, they are meant to be played in release order. Take MGS3. You have references to MGS2 in the form of Raikov, people keep telling Snake that he has no experience sneaking in the wilderness (as the player has, since previous games never featured a jungle environment that prominently). If you play the games chronologically you don't get a ton of that stuff... or you do, because you've already played all the games. So, dislike what I think is a pretty decent game as much as you want. But if you hate it SOLELY because it doesn't fit into you fact collection of what you think the Metal Gear series should be about and what the history of everyone is, because you can't losen up, it's just sad, because you are missing out on some damn good game with a better and deeper story than most AAA games have these days. Amen.  |
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 23, 2015 18:01:56 GMT -5
LMFAO, no. BB wanted to create a place where there will always be room for soldiers, where they would not be discarded as the Boss did. You need to replay MGS. It is true that I disliked the technical quality of MPO, but the truth is, the plot only had minor conflicts with the rest of the series. MPW, while a technical masterpiece, not only ruins every aspect of MG1 but hurts MG2 and MGS. In creating stories like MPO and MPW, Kojima kills the series by making earlier games insignificant. From an audience perspective the story works well when going from MGS3 to MG1. Playing MPO (and more so MPW) prior to MG1, however, not only f...cks up the timeline but diminishes everything the original title stood for. The truth is, PW was supposed to be MGS5 but Kojima changed his mind. So the games ARE intended to be played in order! Again, let me emphasise my point of view - no disrespect, nor any offense meant. And neither should you take this personally. Peace, dude.  |
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 24, 2015 2:36:01 GMT -5
LMFAO, no. BB wanted to create a place where there will always be room for soldiers, where they would not be discarded as the Boss did. You need to replay MGS. It is true that I disliked the technical quality of MPO, but the truth is, the plot only had minor conflicts with the rest of the series. MPW, while a technical masterpiece, not only ruins every aspect of MG1 but hurts MG2 and MGS. In creating stories like MPO and MPW, Kojima kills the series by making earlier games insignificant. From an audience perspective the story works well when going from MGS3 to MG1. Playing MPO (and more so MPW) prior to MG1, however, not only f...cks up the timeline but diminishes everything the original title stood for. The truth is, PW was supposed to be MGS5 but Kojima changed his mind. So the games ARE intended to be played in order! Again, let me emphasise my point of view - no disrespect, nor any offense meant. And neither should you take this personally. Peace, dude. Yes, he wanted to create a world where soldiers would always have a place, by creating a world where there would always be war. "You saw those children, didn't you? Every one is a victim of a war somewhere of the world. And they'll make fine soldiers in the next war. Start a war, for its flames, create victims… Then save them, train them… And feed them back onto the battlefield. It's a perfectly logical system. In this world of ours, conflict never ends. And neither does our purpose… our raisond'etre." This sounds pretty much like a warmonger to me. And like a good villain, he had a very twisted sense of morality, so you can actually kind of understand his reasoning, but make no mistake, Big Boss might have honorable intentions, but fueling war, taking war orphans out only to turn them into new soldiers, that's not what a good person does. And again, you are reducing the Metal Gear series down to factual accuracy and completely missing the point and just ignore what I already said a couple of times in the past few posts about a.) how inconsistencies have always been part of Metal gear, b.) Peace Walker still isn't as inconsistent with the other games as you think and c.) how all of this is ultimately pointless, since the true heart of the Metal Gear series lies with its overall theme of what shapes a person, which is generally summarized as GENE, MEME, SCENE, SENSE, PEACE and RACE & REVENGE for each game, with which both Peace Walker and MGS5 still fit pretty well and which is not represented in games such as MPO or Rising. I'm not offended or anything. I also respect that you have lost interest in the series and don't like how it turned out, but I just don't agree with you and since this is a discussion forum, I discuss. Peace to you, too. |
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 24, 2015 3:39:26 GMT -5
Alas, if only Kojima could have included said themes within games like PO or MGR...
I mean, if games like those from the original MG1 to MGS4 could be as fleshed out in story as they were in gameplay, then why the blazing heck couldn't Kojima make Portable Ops or Peace Walker as fun (plot-wise, I mean?)
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fgdj2000
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Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on Jun 24, 2015 11:30:55 GMT -5
Alas, if only Kojima could have included said themes within games like PO or MGR... I mean, if games like those from the original MG1 to MGS4 could be as fleshed out in story as they were in gameplay, then why the blazing heck couldn't Kojima make Portable Ops or Peace Walker as fun (plot-wise, I mean?) Well, he didn't make MPO and from what I gather he was pretty fed up with the series at that point (when he was working on MGS4). Peace Walker was much more labor of love and the prospect of doing a portable game seemed to excite him enough to return yet again. |
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Cerberus_0408
Elite (level 2)
Now playing MGS HD Collection and wanting Metal Gear Legacy Collection
Posts: 633
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Jun 25, 2015 3:06:16 GMT -5
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Post by A.G. on Jul 5, 2015 14:23:39 GMT -5
Well, that's bad news. I was really hoping this would end the series but oh well. I really stopped caring. The series ended with MGS4, all these new games are just watering the story down.
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