Metal Gear Themes

[A.G.]

This topic is long overdue. Without being long winded, I want to clarify my stance on the themes.

MGS1-3 were built around specific themes. More so, the themes flowed into each other connecting in an in-depth philosophical reflection. That is why they worked. Note that it's very easy to describe them without referencing plot points:

GENE: not being limited by your genetic fate and making your own choice about how to live your life.
MEME: finding something important to believe in (ideals, culture, etc) and passing that in to the future.
SCENE: what you believe in is dictated and influenced by the times and that nothing is permanent.

There is an organic flow to these three. But in MY OPINION this stopped with MGS4. The idea of these games having a deep theme became expected. As such, I feel that the themes became tacked on instead of having the game being crafted around them. This results in very heavy handed storytelling and a lack of connection with other themes. They also become harder to define without relying on plot points.

SENSE: what is it and how does it connect to previous themes? I've read explanations that say the game is about the will of the individual. Seems very random and disconnected from the first three.

PEACE: again, I don't see a connection to the earlier themes here. Further more, showing how futile the concept of peace is does not require a new game. The entire series story that spans over 50 years illustrates that point.

REVENGE: not sure why this is a theme at all. Once again, the idea of a never ending cycle of events is supported by the whole series and is highlighted in MGS4.

RACE: I think the game completely fails at this. This would've been a great theme to explore further in MGS4 where you travel the world and see proxy wars in action. Plus, unlike the previous three, I can see this connecting better to MGS1-3 themes.

[fgdj2000]

I have some stuff to say, but I will divide it into two more digestable posts. The first one is about MGS1-4 and not in disagreement but more as a supplement:

The Themes of Metal Gear are one of its biggest appeals to me, because this makes the games more than just pure entertainment. It makes each game a lesson. I think the themes of MGS1 and MGS2 are strongly interwoven. MGS2 is really an extension of MGS1 in that regard. MGS1 shows you that who and what you are doesn't have to be determined by your genes, and MGS2 builds on that. There is so much more to pass on than just genes. That is an aspect that I noticed and passing on things from one generation to the next is also a core theme in all games to some degree.
MGS3 also ties into this with "Scene". What we believe in and what we pass on is strongly determined by the times we live in, or in other words, the environment. And here is where MGS4 jumps in and continues to build upon that theme.
Sense is a weird name, but what is meant here, is all the things, that can't be passed on, but make up a person. It is kind of the conclusion to the other three, the summary. The game deals a lot with how a persons will can be misinterpreted, because it cannot be properly passed on. Basically, when a person dies, you still have the genetic material, the things the person said and did (the memes) and the environment that the person both was shaped by and helped shape, but the person itself is gone. And that was also what Kojima was dealing with, personally. He wanted everyone to embrace the lessons from the MGS games, but all fans were asking was "How does the story continue after MGS2? Who ARE the Patriots? Is Vamp truely a vampire?" etc. So, no one seemed to care about the lessons and in that sense, Kojima himself felt misunderstood and misinterpreted... and so he wrote a story about how the will of one ultimately pacifistic person was twisted into total crontrol and infinite warfare.

[fgdj2000]

The second post is on MGSPW and MGSV in disagreement. Not that we will ever see eye to eye on this...

PW doesn't show that peace is futile, it's not that simple, but it shows how much you have to work for it and how walking the path of peace can also lead dangerously close to war. You are attempting to fight of a foreing intruder from costa rica and bring peace, but ultimately you end up building your own military force. Trying to maintain peace can quickly result in provoking war. Which is what actually happens in MGSV GZ. And it actually does tie into the earlier themes because the promise of peace is what The Boss was after, why she sacrificed herself and which lead to the misinterpretation of her will.

As for MGSV‘s themes, Race and Revenge, this is where we disagree the most.
Revenge: The game demonstrates the futility of revenge, because you never get any true satisfaction out of it. This is one core message and it's worked into the game quite well and is especially noticable after Skull Face's death. By the end of chapter one, you've spend the entire game foiling Skull Face‘s efforts, taking random missions in hopes of getting closer to Skull Face and gradually take his soldiers, his scientist and even his ultimate weapon. Yet, when he is dead, there isn‘t supposed to be any satisfaction and in the second chapter you end up dealing with the ramifications of the events of the first chapter and it doesn‘t end gloriously with a bang but with a whimper. And that is how the circle of revenge ends. That's the point of the game.

Race: I‘ve talked about this earlier, but you were unwilling to listen. This encompasses language and culture and there‘s a great deal about it in that game. How the English language becomes dominant and how that makes other cultures die out. And it plays a large role in the game. From characters like Skull Face or Code Talker who have both been „violated“ by the English language and culture, to the parasites that are language focused to Quiet who doesn‘t speak and communicates through other means to the soldiers who speak different languages and who you can‘t understand if you don‘t have an interpreter to Venom Snake himself whose life and identity is ultimately stolen by Big Boss who turns him effectively into his puppet with his closing monologue.

[A.G.]

Jan 6, 2017 17:47:59 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

Sense is a weird name, but what is meant here, is all the things, that can't be passed on, but make up a person. It is kind of the conclusion to the other three, the summary. The game deals a lot with how a persons will can be misinterpreted, because it cannot be properly passed on. Basically, when a person dies, you still have the genetic material, the things the person said and did (the memes) and the environment that the person both was shaped by and helped shape, but the person itself is gone. And that was also what Kojima was dealing with, personally. He wanted everyone to embrace the lessons from the MGS games, but all fans were asking was "How does the story continue after MGS2? Who ARE the Patriots? Is Vamp truely a vampire?" etc. So, no one seemed to care about the lessons and in that sense, Kojima himself felt misunderstood and misinterpreted... and so he wrote a story about how the will of one ultimately pacifistic person was twisted into total crontrol and infinite warfare.

That's how you see it. It's not a fact though. I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, but will say that the mere fact that the theme of MGS4 is so poorly defined is evidence of how the game failed to have the depth of the first 3. Your interpretation of that theme is a stretch at best. It's hardly a lesson, unlike the first three. And the reason is because it's not relatable to the audience. The first three were. The theme, or rather your view of it, is relavent to The Boss. As for how you think it ties to Kojima, it's far fetched. MGS4 was forced on him. It had nothing to do with people not accepting or learning from the other games. The game was indeed a plot summary with story replacing a theme. The game struggled to have meaning beyond connecting all the plot points. And that's why it's the weakest of the first 4.

[A.G.]

Jan 6, 2017 17:49:40 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

The second post is on MGSPW and MGSV in disagreement. Not that we will ever see eye to eye on this...

PW doesn't show that peace is futile, it's not that simple, but it shows how much you have to work for it and how walking the path of peace can also lead dangerously close to war. You are attempting to fight of a foreing intruder from costa rica and bring peace, but ultimately you end up building your own military force. Trying to maintain peace can quickly result in provoking war. Which is what actually happens in MGSV GZ. And it actually does tie into the earlier themes because the promise of peace is what The Boss was after, why she sacrificed herself and which lead to the misinterpretation of her will.

As for MGSV‘s themes, Race and Revenge, this is where we disagree the most.
Revenge: The game demonstrates the futility of revenge, because you never get any true satisfaction out of it. This is one core message and it's worked into the game quite well and is especially noticable after Skull Face's death. By the end of chapter one, you've spend the entire game foiling Skull Face‘s efforts, taking random missions in hopes of getting closer to Skull Face and gradually take his soldiers, his scientist and even his ultimate weapon. Yet, when he is dead, there isn‘t supposed to be any satisfaction and in the second chapter you end up dealing with the ramifications of the events of the first chapter and it doesn‘t end gloriously with a bang but with a whimper. And that is how the circle of revenge ends. That's the point of the game.

Race: I‘ve talked about this earlier, but you were unwilling to listen. This encompasses language and culture and there‘s a great deal about it in that game. How the English language becomes dominant and how that makes other cultures die out. And it plays a large role in the game. From characters like Skull Face or Code Talker who have both been „violated“ by the English language and culture, to the parasites that are language focused to Quiet who doesn‘t speak and communicates through other means to the soldiers who speak different languages and who you can‘t understand if you don‘t have an interpreter to Venom Snake himself whose life and identity is ultimately stolen by Big Boss who turns him effectively into his puppet with his closing monologue.

Indeed we will never agree on this. Your whole rant here further illustrates what I've been saying. These "themes" have nothing to do with the other games. Nor are they lessons for the audience playing them. In your own argument about story vs theme (and your accusation that I value story more) you are not able to talk about MPW or MGS5 themes without only talking about the story. That's because these are not themes. They are not lessons. They are just plot points! It's rather funny that you can't see that.

As for your view on the ending of Chapters 1&2... dude... if poor game design is something that you are willing to accept as the point of the game then I really can't take you seriously. Your are literally polishing a turd, attaching meaning where there is none. Phantom Pain is a lot like Phantom Menace, the creator drinking his own kool aid and abandoning basic rules of storytelling because "they know better". Your reasoning here is about as silly as the theory that Kojima left out content on purpose to make us feel a phantom pain. Just think about how dumb what you said is. "I'm going to make a game where at the end the gamer can feel used and disappointed". Seriously... you are insane! No game designer, no matter how eccentric, would set that as a goal.

For all your defense of these games the reality is that they will slip into the cracks of history. Much like MPO. But MGS1-3 will stand the test of time. And the reason is because story and themes were well thought out. One wasn't placed above the other.

[A.G.]

I wanted to add one more thing to all this. You see my attachment to the story as me not understanding the series. There are two problems with that. First, note that I don't criticize the themes of MGS1-3. Why is that? Because they are actual themes, not just overblown plot points. Second, in all your arguing you have not been able to defend the "themes" I criticized without constantly talking about the story. That is where you fail and your argument has no validity. MGS5 is the most blatant example of that. Hours of information on tapes that talk about every little detail in the world of Metal Gear and you have the nerve to downplay the emphasis the series puts on story? That it's not the point? That a rediculously tacked on "theme" is justification for disregarding plot and game design. No sir. It's not a grand vision or an elaborate trick. It's just a poorly made game. And the reason why it's that way is because the gameplay design took so long. It's painfully obvious that with MGS5 graphics and gameplay came first. Story was a distant second. Theme... well... maybe that's the phantom pain.

[fgdj2000]

I talked about the themes and how they were implemented in the plot so you might see them as well. You were the one arguing there are no themes and I tried to show you, where you can find them. I used the plot as evidence. If I had only said, they were there, you would have just said no and now, that I have given you examples, you just completely disregard them.
I give you this: they weren't as flawlessly implemented in MGSV as they were in MGS1-3 and yes, these games will always stand the test of time, just as the Star Wars OT will above the PT and current Disney Wave and just as Lord of the Rings over The Hobbit. However, this doesn't mean they are poorly implemented or that there are none at all. Part of it also has to do with the fact that nowadays, so many games are cinematic and storydriven, have decent to superb voice acting, deal with themes (though not as graciously as MGS) and have much smoother controld sceams. Compare how Tomb Raider played in 1998 vs. MGS1 and then Tomb Raider 2015 to MGSV and you'll see the progress the industry has made.

As for your argument, that he wouldn't include  seemingly bad game design on the surface: He has done it before! He believes in things like "the refusing chair" as art, so you bet he will apply at least some of this philosophy to video games as well. In MGS2 he purposefully crafted a hero who was the opposite of the cool Solid Snake fans were familiar with and wanted to play as; who badly wanted to be like Solid Snake and has played through all the VR Missions, but simply wasn't; there were less imaginative boss characters, the terrorist plot was gradually peeled away and ultimately the player's goals felt hollow. And a lot of people argued just like you do now that this was simply bad game design, but Kojima wanted to get a point across and people didn't get it until a decade later. And while MGSV certainly has its flaws, it isn't the complete and utter screw up you make it out to be and Kojima clearly wanted to get a point across, perhaps more so than in MGS4 and MGS PW.

[A.G.]

Once again, I completely disagree with you. There is a world of difference between MGS2 and MGS4.

Raiden vs Venom
People were upset for different reasons on this. Raiden simply wasn't badass enough, a superficial gamble that didn't payoff. The actual point of putting in Raiden instead of Snake was logical. And frankly, if they made him look more like Johnny in MGS4 Kojima's point would've come across better, without the audience getting so distracted by the look. Further more, seeing Raiden evolve as his own character throughout the game instead of just being an extension of the player was brilliant. It was brilliant design. We don't see that with Venom. Venom is introduced to us in the middle of the series. And while we associate with Raiden in the sense that we are not Solid Snake, we get nothing of the sort with Venom. From the start we think it's Big Boss. The end reveal fails to connect since Venom is not us, he was never us. He is an existing character from Ground Zeroes. See, our connection with Raiden was based on association. But by placing our likeness on Venom the connection became literal. Which why it fails. This character is not me. He represents me in no way. He has his own identity in Ground Zeroes and reclaims his memories of it at the end of the Phantom Pain. Raiden broke away from our control, becoming his own character at the end. Venom is meant to be us, and yet in the next game he is killed by Solid Snake, making the reveal pointless since Solid Snake was originally designed vague enough to represent the player. Hence the danger of cramming in-between games. If you want to defend this by saying that it's a sacrifice we make for the lesson about Big a boss using us then I'm afraid it's too big of a price. Simply not a good enough payoff to make such a sacrifice in story.

Game Design
MGS2 did indeed struggle with design towards the end. But that wasn't intentional like you say. The look of Raiden or other bosses was just Shinkawa's design. He never felt they were poorly designed. That part is purely subjective. The biggest issue the game had at the end was not enough gameplay and questionable writing, specifically with dialogue. It was the first time I saw that Kojima simply needed an editor. There was nothing wrong with the story or the theme, but scene structure and dialogue could've been refined to make them come across smoother. Hell, much of this relates to MGS4 as well. Nobody really questioned MGS1 or 3. Why? Because on those games he found balance.

MGS2 is getting more credit now then it did in 2001. But you are wrong about MGS5. There is no subtle depth to find. It's possible there was an intention to create it, but sadly it failed.

[fgdj2000]

On Venom Snake: But he is his own character. There are subtle hints that he has very different personality from Big Boss, as you pointed out yourself multiple times. He doesn't throw one-liners, he is much more quiet and gentle, he doesn't use child soldiers (he actually tries his best to reintegrate them into society) he doesn't build nuclear warheads (unless you decide so yourself) (he is even working towards dismantiling nuclear warheads if you take that hidden ending) and he openly regrets "his" earlier exploits.
That he was given the players face was to bring him closer to us and, most importantly, to make Big Boss' final words much more disturbing. It may not have succeeded with you, but it actually did with me. I think where Kojima screwed up, was that he should have brought us this revelation earlier and given us just a little more time towards the end to adjust to it. But again, opinions.
I don't have much to say on the other things. You are right, MGS1 and MGS3 were the best games in the series, because they found the right balance, but for me at least that doesn't make the other games bad. I have played bad games. And no MGS game is truly bad, trust me.

[A.G.]

MGS Twin Snakes. Bad bad bad! LOL

[fgdj2000]

I still prefer the original, but it wasn't really bad... just lazy... oh, well, since the great gameplay systems at place can't really be attributed to that game, yeah, it was kind of bad!

[A.G.]

In 2004 I was more eager for Twin Snakes than Snake Eater! But the game failed on all fronts. The cutscenes were terrible, the voice acting (shockingly) was subpar, and the gameplay didn't really fit. First person aim in a wide open MGS1 maps made it too easy. Yet the lack of a 3D camera still made navigation awkward. It was a strange combination. I was rather surprised they didn't add new maps, kinda like MGS4 did.

[fgdj2000]

For me, it was the first time hearing the English voices of MGS1 cast. It wasn't until the Legacy Collection that I got to play the original in English. That being said, some performances were really bad in Twin Snakes. Especially Liquid. I liked Rob Paulson as Gray Fox. Some of the music was pretty good (Ninja boss fight), but most of it was pretty boring. In addition to that the environments weren't very detailed, you couldn't interact and some sections actually were way too hard because of the improved enemy A.I. in the cramped environments of MGS1. Then other sections became way too easy. A very uneven experience.
But I liked how MGS4 had some fun easter eggs that referenced it. Like the Zone of the Enders poster in Otacons office, that comes off and has the Policenauts poster behind it.

[A.G.]

When Snake did a backflip off a missile I knew the game was beyond saving.

[fgdj2000]

It had an identity crisis and though it was a Devil May Cry game