Interesting analysis of MGSV (and its failings)

[fgdj2000]

He guys, found an interesting video on The Phantom Pain. It's four years old, but I didn't know it, yet. 

It sums up, why MGSV is so different (even from Peace Walker) and why this isn't always a good thing. I haven't switched sides on the MGSV discussion. I still think it's a good game and has a good story poorly told and to me it's still a worthy addition of the series. That being said, I am not blind to its issues. 

Anyway. Here is the video. Enjoy!

[fgdj2000]

Also, the guy made a video about Peace Walker. He has an interesting take on the series. 

He sees the greatest value in the series gameplay-wise in the VR-Missions in MGS1 and MGS2, but was disappointed by their absence in MGS3 and MGS4 and cheerful at their "return" in MGS PW. He makes a compelling argument, even though I don't agree with all of his points. It's still an interesting take on the series. 

[A.G.]

I have seen these. There are a lot of great points. But it also shows how the series impacts people differently. So when I make my evaluations I try to avoid being subjective. After all, the goal isn’t to make someone dislike the game. If the game appeals to you nobody will convince you that it’s bad. lol

Here’s the thing, as general as I can make it. MPW and MGS5 are not bad games. There is a lot to enjoy in both of them. The issue is that they go against the principles that made Metal Gear what it was. Specifically how unique it was. Two quick bullet points on what I mean:

> Respecting the previous games - one of the first things that made me fall in love with the series is how MGS took so much care to respect its past. The plot of the MSX games was brought in and MGS built on it even though most of the audience didn’t know those games existed. As sloppy as MGS4 was in places, I felt it was the last time Kojima truly respected his old games. MPW and MGS5 were all about a new direction and the story suffered. The missing links rendered the MSX games pointless and in official timelines they were frequently grouped with MPO or MPW. Outer Heaven wasn’t the first PMC. TX55 wasn’t the first Metal Gear. Everything that made it special was gone.

> Having it’s own style - I adored how unapologetic MGS games were in their design. Long cutscenes, crazy plot, whacky controls at times and a unique blend of realism and fantasy. Even MGS4 still had that even though he finally compromised on the controls (thank goodness!). But MPW and MGS5 left that design behind. Monster Hunter, Pokémon and GTA seemed to pull the series away from its own style. Hell, look at Rising. Fun game I hear, but how is that Metal Gear? It’s not.

In their story and game design, MPW and MGS5 left the traditions of the series behind. The stories felt less epic with a heavier lean on realistic mission structures. Problem is, just like what the video said, there are others who do it better. All of those new things Kojima tried to do were already done by others with far greater success. And that’s my main point. These games were NOT NEEDED.

It’s really not shocking that MGS5 ended Kojima’s run at Konami. Sure, the game sold 6 million copies. But that’s across 4 systems! MGS4 did the same on just the PS3. MGS1 did the same in 1998! He spent 5 years building something that wasn’t really Metal Gear and something that couldn’t compete in the arena he was looking to enter.

[Cerberus_0408]

It’s really not shocking that MGS5 ended Kojima’s run at Konami. Sure, the game sold 6 million copies. But that’s across 4 systems! MGS4 did the same on just the PS3. MGS1 did the same in 1998! He spent 5 years building something that wasn’t really Metal Gear and something that couldn’t compete in the arena he was looking to enter.

Well that's the point isn't it. You said so yourself some time ago. Each MGS game has improved from its previous instalment.

Just think about it. MG to MGS2 had the player ALREADY inside an enemy base. MGS3 had a wilderness environment, survival and camouflage mechanics, GoTP had war zone and shooter controls, PW had motherbase management and mission based structure, MGS5 had open world environment and GTA do whatever you want.

[A.G.]

Problem is, MPW and MGS5 weren’t a step forward in the Metal Gear evolution like the other games were. They were a step AWAY from that formula.

[Cerberus_0408]

But what formula exactly are you speaking of?

[fgdj2000]

May 12, 2020 2:15:13 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

But what formula exactly are you speaking of?

Well, Peace Walker introduced the mission based structure and the mother base meta game, which greatly changed Metal Gear. 

I agree in some ways. PW should have been (and was perceived by me tbh) a spin-off. In a spin-off, as long as there's a connection to the main series, I think you can deviate from the formula (e.g. Rising: Cyborg Ninjas and their acrobatic antics have been a part of the series for a long time, so designing a game around one makes sense to me; however, Zombies haven't ever been a part of the series, so designing a SURVIVE! game around that makes no sense at all). Peace Walker still carries the Metal Gear wackiness imo quite well. Crazy side-missions, linear puzzle-like levels, dense and engaging and whacky story. MGSV clearly should have been a different game. There are even hints, that Kojima himself didn't really want this game to be a Metal Gear, as the late trailers often show the "Metal Gear Solid V" dissolving from the title. (Generally, I have observed, that both The Phantom Pain and Death Stranding aim to tear down the "wall" between player and player-character and focus more on player expression in an open ended environment than railroading you through a fast-paced and dominating storyline.)

Back to topic; I also think, MGSV did a far better job than Lambhood gives the game credit for, at its basic stealth gameplay. Sure, vehicles are awkward, the world is empty and even the large bases outside their missions feel a little lifeless, but I still stand by my opinion, that most of the main missions are really well designed, feature secondary objectives, that change your perspective on the levels and have A-Grade stealth mechanics, especially when compared to many other open-world/ stealth games of the time (and even today). Assassin's Creed for instance has similarly open environments where you have to sneak into enemy "bases", and the A.I. is laughably bad. No coordination, binary "detected"/"not-detected", systems... trust me, there is a difference. Even Hitman has relatively poor A.I., but makes up with great level design. Maybe, this game should have just been the 50 38 missions? Free-roaming the open world can be relaxing downtime, though. Quality time with D-Dog and a jeep. 

[Cerberus_0408]

In regards to your comparison with the stealth games like AC and Hitman, I guess maybe Splinter Cell in a way had decent mechanics. Look it up if you haven't already. Basically you have a gauge that warns you of the chances of being detected based on the amount of light in the environment. It goes to the left in total darkness and to the right if you were in an illuminated area. But you could shoot out lights and even when your night vision was active, you could still see how likely you were to get your cover blown.

Also in Chaos Theory, a new detection system is introduced where the game measures how much NOISE you generate compared to the surroundings. If you made more noise, the enemies could detect you easier.

In fact, it's even said that Splinter Cell was made to directly compete with MGS!

The game originally started development in as a sci-fi, James Bond type game called The Drift, which Ubisoft intended to be "a Metal Gear Solid 2 killer." The game's producer Mathieu Ferland said "Metal Gear Solid was a huge inspiration for Splinter Cell." The game's designer and writer Clint Hocking also said Splinter Cell "owes its existence to" the Metal Gear series, while noting he was also influenced by System Shock, Thief and Deus Ex.

[A.G.]

Regarding the formula comment. It’s the overall look, feel and structure of the game. If you sit down and play MGS2 and MGS3 and after that pop in MPW and MGS5, do you feel like you are playing the same series? I don’t. Game structure is different. Presentation is different. Music style is different. And when you factor in that much of the new plot creates friction with existing games, and in some cases diminishes their importance, it’s hard to see them as continuation of the series.

When I look at the missing links, the deviation from that formula got bigger with each title. MPO had the least. MPW was probably half and half. MGS5 was a far departure. That goes for the story as well. While I’m not a fan of all three, the story conflicts get bigger and bigger. MPO again had the least with the Gray Fox backstory being the only real retcon. The Metal Gears in that game were primitive enough to slide by. They weren’t actually walking. Sokolov coming back was stupid, but technically it’s not a retcon. MPW definitely went further with futuristic tech, US building Metal Gears, MSF/Outer Heaven, Huey/Granin, etc. MGS5 went even deeper as we discussed before with impact on the entire future plot.

It’s very clear to me that MPO/MPW/MGS5 were screaming to be a new IP. Everything about them felt like an evolution of their own trilogy. And they should’ve done it as such. Let it be it’s own thing.

[fgdj2000]

Well, when I play PW I still feel like I'm playing the same series, even with some nice callbacks to the VR Missions. Even when I play Ground Zeroes, it still feels the same, just on an open scale with a darker tone (and let e tell you, I felt MGS2 was much darker than MGS1, so it doesn't feel like too much of a shift). It's The Phantom Pain where I feel the biggest shift happens: Everything is more grounded and moves at a much slower pace, the gameplay and your personal experience takes precedence over the story, which almost disappears at times; the new Snake is basically a silent protagonist. Generally, I almost view TPP as almost a thematic bridge to Death Stranding. Both games have more in common than TPP and the rest of the MG series.

Personally, I think I don't want either Kojima or anybody else continue the series. It's run it's course; without Kojima and his desire to put deeper meaning into the games (GENE etc.), I think any future MGS would just be a hollow imitation, maybe even a really good one, but still somewhat hollow. If Kojima should return, it should focus on brand new characters and a brand new story - but then again, why not make it a new game entirely? I'd prefer Kojima to just do new games, no franchises. So, no Death Stranding 2, but something else entirely next. Make em quirky, make em stick, they don't need to be mainstream blockbusters, just fresh takes on an increasingly stale industry.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 12, 2020 10:10:40 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Regarding the formula comment. It’s the overall look, feel and structure of the game. If you sit down and play MGS2 and MGS3 and after that pop in MPW and MGS5, do you feel like you are playing the same series? I don’t. Game structure is different. Presentation is different. Music style is different. And when you factor in that much of the new plot creates friction with existing games, and in some cases diminishes their importance, it’s hard to see them as continuation of the series.

When I look at the missing links, the deviation from that formula got bigger with each title. MPO had the least. MPW was probably half and half. MGS5 was a far departure. That goes for the story as well. While I’m not a fan of all three, the story conflicts get bigger and bigger. MPO again had the least with the Gray Fox backstory being the only real retcon. The Metal Gears in that game were primitive enough to slide by. They weren’t actually walking. Sokolov coming back was stupid, but technically it’s not a retcon. MPW definitely went further with futuristic tech, US building Metal Gears, MSF/Outer Heaven, Huey/Granin, etc. MGS5 went even deeper as we discussed before with impact on the entire future plot.

It’s very clear to me that MPO/MPW/MGS5 were screaming to be a new IP. Everything about them felt like an evolution of their own trilogy. And they should’ve done it as such. Let it be it’s own thing.

In terms of Sokolov, it was claimed that he had a fake death pill similar to the one you get in MGS3, which warranted how he survived Volgin.

[A.G.]

Yeah, Metal Gear needs to stay dead. It’s general design and structure is out of place today. It’s another reason I liked MGS4. It was the last game to use that type of design and Snake even said that their time has passed and their war is over. It was a conclusion in more than just story.

[fgdj2000]

May 12, 2020 22:33:54 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Yeah, Metal Gear needs to stay dead. It’s general design and structure is out of place today. It’s another reason I liked MGS4. It was the last game to use that type of design and Snake even said that their time has passed and their war is over. It was a conclusion in more than just story.

I wouldn't say that. MGSV had really good stealth mechanics and there are many games today that still use a metroidvania-like structure (or a downright linear structure) like earlier Metal Gear games. There are even games today, that mimic early Metal Gear. 

But the story has run its course - it's already needlessly convoluted and has contradictions, so nothing short of a reboot or a soft-reboot would work well from a story-perspective - and then wouldn't it make more sense to just start a new IP? Secondly, Kojima's games (at least since MGS1) always existed not just for their own sake but to convey something meaningful to the player, sometimes more gracefully than other times. That's what makes a Kojima game truly Kojima to me, since the story and even the gameplay are often designed to support that meaningful theme. Without that you "just" have another Uncharted or another Batman: Arkham - good games in their own right, but nothing that changes or at least enriches your outlook in life. 

So, if they ever reboot MGS, I want them to find another auteur designer who can put his own personal stamp on that. Yoko Taro would be a good fit imo (since he also has very pacifistic view which he implements in his action games that are often about killing/ destroying enemies, and a quirky, 4th wall breaking sense of humor). So, something like that would get me interested, but other than that, I think the series should stay as it is. 

[A.G.]

Oh, I didn’t mean the story of MGS4 when I talked about the general structure. More like overall layout and presentation. MGS4 was the last one to have that cutscene-heavy, solo movie story progression feel. MPW and MGS5 you were never alone. You had your base. And the story was more episodic. MGS4 was split into 4 acts, but each was long enough to be a movie, lol.

As for reboots, I don’t think it’s needed. Have people create new things, not rehash the past. The only thing I want is for them to keep it alive. Once a generation, release the collection on the new system. It’s an iconic series that needs to be preserved. Sadly, the PS3 architecture was a bitch and backwards compatibility is tough. So playing the 2012 collection on PS4 and PS5 is not an option.

[fgdj2000]

May 14, 2020 10:17:06 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Oh, I didn’t mean the story of MGS4 when I talked about the general structure. More like overall layout and presentation. MGS4 was the last one to have that cutscene-heavy, solo movie story progression feel. MPW and MGS5 you were never alone. You had your base. And the story was more episodic. MGS4 was split into 4 acts, but each was long enough to be a movie, lol.

Yeah, that's true. That was a deliberate design decision on Kojima's part. He even said that in interviews. It did fit better with the mission-structure in MPW and MGSV. However, I don't think the previous more seamless movie-like design is outdated, as you seemed to imply in you previous post. Look at modern games like Naughty Dog games, Jedi Fallen Order, Spider-Man, God of War. It's not outdated. And apart from maybe Hitman, I think Metal Gear is still unmatched in stealth gameplay.

As for reboots, I don’t think it’s needed. Have people create new things, not rehash the past. The only thing I want is for them to keep it alive. Once a generation, release the collection on the new system. It’s an iconic series that needs to be preserved. Sadly, the PS3 architecture was a bitch and backwards compatibility is tough. So playing the 2012 collection on PS4 and PS5 is not an option.

Honestly, on that I wholeheartedly agree. Though personally I'd still love to see Yoko Taro and Kojima paired up. They'd have a lot to talk about.

Then again, some properties work, If you keep them alive. Without keeping Batman alive for 80 years (with a lot of BS), we'd never had the 1989 fitm, Year One, The Dark Knight Trilogy, the Arkham Trilogy or The Animated Series.