What was Kojima’s message in Phantom Pain?

[A.G.]

Was thinking about this today. At the end of MGS2, Raiden throws away the dog tags with the players name, essentially rejecting player control and becoming his own character. That was cool! In Phantom Pain we get another moment that ties in the player. Big Boss explains to Venom the truth about his role as his proxy. We do get that “we built this together line”, essentially Kojima as Big Boss talking to Venom who represents us, the players. But here is what’s strange to me. Venom then shatters the mirror and accepts his role as the puppet of Big Boss. He rejects his own self to continue being Big Boss’ proxy. So what does that say about Kojima and the fans? It’s in the same scene, so we are still breaking the 4th wall.

Sadly, it really comes across as fans accepting whatever Kojima gives them without question. No room to think for yourself, just play what he tells you to play and accept whatever truth he puts in the game. It’s the exact opposite of the meaning of MGS1 and MGS2 where the message was to make your own decisions and live your life.

A bit deep, but just didn’t sit well with me.

[Cerberus_0408]

I still think that you are free to accept the things you like and reject the rest. Kojima's new games are making the old ones irrelevant.

You said so yourself. MGS4 and 5 do NOT fit together. It's either one or the other. I would go with GotP and ignore GZ with PP also less important. I know it's a shame that the timeline is so f...cking convoluted but that's what you get when Kojima's vision becomes so screwed up that he essentially doesn't give a flying damn about whether things fit together. Nothing can be perfect. At least not when fans all over the globe are demanding a new game. (Not that you are demanding a new game, clearly you aren't. I'm saying people in general)

[A.G.]

That scene just seems strange to me. Unless I’m misunderstanding. The metaphors is clear, Kojima is talking to us through Big Boss. But Venom’s reaction of compliance seems so out of touch with what the series always pushed.

[Cerberus_0408]

So WHAT exactly does the series always push?

[A.G.]

Making your own choices and living your life the way you choose. Finding something to believe for yourself. MGS1 and MGS2 state that very clearly. Even MGS3 shows that with Big Boss choosing to follow his own path. MGS4 ends with Snake finally free of the never ending war to live his life on his terms, as little as he had left.

That’s what confuses me about that ending scene in Phantom Pain. With Venom representing the player, the ending demonstrates a lack of free will. Conformity to whatever truth you are being told. And that leads you to MG1 where you are killed by Solid Snake. How much of a bond can one have with an empty shell like Venom? Just don’t get it.

[Cerberus_0408]

Would you say that the original games (MG1 and 2) both promote the theme that you can make your own choices?

[A.G.]

MSX games weren’t deep enough to get so philosophical. Though MG2 comes close. Snake leaves the special forces life behind after what Big Boss tells him about the battlefield fate.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 17, 2020 0:09:10 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Making your own choices and living your life the way you choose. Finding something to believe for yourself. MGS1 and MGS2 state that very clearly. Even MGS3 shows that with Big Boss choosing to follow his own path. MGS4 ends with Snake finally free of the never ending war to live his life on his terms, as little as he had left.

That’s what confuses me about that ending scene in Phantom Pain. With Venom representing the player, the ending demonstrates a lack of free will. Conformity to whatever truth you are being told. And that leads you to MG1 where you are killed by Solid Snake. How much of a bond can one have with an empty shell like Venom? Just don’t get it.

I guess Kojima was truly trying to f...ck with our minds. Make you fight somebody in MG1 and 2...only to later find out your MGS5 character was that "somebody" who you defeated. You do all that in Phantom Pain all for nothing.

But doesn't something similar happen in MGS3? Snake defeats the Boss thinking she was the bad guy, only to find out that she was part of a conspiracy. Which causes him to turn into a villian.

[fgdj2000]

May 16, 2020 23:36:39 GMT -5 A.G. said:

That scene just seems strange to me. Unless I’m misunderstanding. The metaphors is clear, Kojima is talking to us through Big Boss. But Venom’s reaction of compliance seems so out of touch with what the series always pushed.

I think, he is basically saying, that the game (and the series) is now over and he has nothing left to tell/ teach us anymore, and that the game and the series belongs to us now and we are free to proceed as we see fit. 

More elaborate:

More than any other game in the series, MGSV is by virtue of being an open world game, a game that puts player expression center stage. As such, Kojima wanted to - among other things - basically remove the wall between player and player character (which he said in an interview, but I don't remember which one). However, Kojima still wanted to tell a story, but rather than ending the story, he is gradually "fading it out". As the game progresses, you build up Motherbase, probably customize it, find your preferred playstyle and get into all the systems, always guided by the story, but also gradually expressing yourself more and more. The final mission doesn't come out of nowhere actually, but rather once you've reached a point in the game, where you've expanded your private army sufficiently and finished (almost) all of the story. Once you reached that point, Kojima and Big Boss congratulate you on your progress, tell you, that the story is over, but that you have "become Big Boss", meaning, you still carry everything you've experienced and achieved with you and are free to do with that as you proceed. 

You can replay missions, achieve extra objectives, 100% the game, expand your MB, engage in FOB or online battles or just move on while carrying your experiences with you. It's up to each player. 

As for Venom smashing the mirror: I think this is just symbolism for smashing the wall between player and player character. Once the mirror is smashed, on the other side is no longer the mirrored character model, but the real Big Boss. It reinforces what Big Boss is saying about Big Boss being you and you being Big Boss. The original and the reflection can no longer be distinguished. 

Finally, I think Kojima left a lot of it intentionally vague, because he wanted people to make up there own mind. In the end, it's a more convoluted way to express similar things as at the end of MGS2. 

----

I can recommend these excerpts from his introduction to the MGSV novelization, where he reflects on how every series has to end and how when that happens, the story will physically disappear, but the ideas and meaning of it for you stay with you. I think, this is what he tried to achieve in the end. 

gamingbolt.com/hideo-kojima-on-metal-gear-solid-5-there-is-a-blank-space-will-not-be-filled



 

[Cerberus_0408]

May 17, 2020 7:34:45 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 16, 2020 23:36:39 GMT -5 A.G. said:

That scene just seems strange to me. Unless I’m misunderstanding. The metaphors is clear, Kojima is talking to us through Big Boss. But Venom’s reaction of compliance seems so out of touch with what the series always pushed.

I think, he is basically saying, that the game (and the series) is now over and he has nothing left to tell/ teach us anymore, and that the game and the series belongs to us now and we are free to proceed as we see fit. 

More elaborate:

More than any other game in the series, MGSV is by virtue of being an open world game, a game that puts player expression center stage. As such, Kojima wanted to - among other things - basically remove the wall between player and player character (which he said in an interview, but I don't remember which one). However, Kojima still wanted to tell a story, but rather than ending the story, he is gradually "fading it out". As the game progresses, you build up Motherbase, probably customize it, find your preferred playstyle and get into all the systems, always guided by the story, but also gradually expressing yourself more and more. The final mission doesn't come out of nowhere actually, but rather once you've reached a point in the game, where you've expanded your private army sufficiently and finished (almost) all of the story. Once you reached that point, Kojima and Big Boss congratulate you on your progress, tell you, that the story is over, but that you have "become Big Boss", meaning, you still carry everything you've experienced and achieved with you and are free to do with that as you proceed. 

You can replay missions, achieve extra objectives, 100% the game, expand your MB, engage in FOB or online battles or just move on while carrying your experiences with you. It's up to each player. 

As for Venom smashing the mirror: I think this is just symbolism for smashing the wall between player and player character. Once the mirror is smashed, on the other side is no longer the mirrored character model, but the real Big Boss. It reinforces what Big Boss is saying about Big Boss being you and you being Big Boss. The original and the reflection can no longer be distinguished. 

Finally, I think Kojima left a lot of it intentionally vague, because he wanted people to make up there own mind. In the end, it's a more convoluted way to express similar things as at the end of MGS2. 

----

I can recommend these excerpts from his introduction to the MGSV novelization, where he reflects on how every series has to end and how when that happens, the story will physically disappear, but the ideas and meaning of it for you stay with you. I think, this is what he tried to achieve in the end. 

gamingbolt.com/hideo-kojima-on-metal-gear-solid-5-there-is-a-blank-space-will-not-be-filled



 

Heres what I think...

Smashing the mirror: This is a clear reference to the fourth wall being broken, like the other games do. Venom is also essentially rejecting himself. Maybe he has learnt to finally make his own choice and live whatever he feels like. It's possible that rejecting himself has made him the antagonist who you later must defeat, not just once but twice, and even then he's not really dead in a literal sense, but as MGS4 proved, he was merely brain dead. However, even then this was actually an illusion, as seen in the ending cutscene. BB is very much alive!

As for your own progress, you CAN indeed choose what you want to do. GTA, and all the other open world games are now in MGS5. Can you commit crimes and get chased by the cops like you do in some different open world games? That's what I always wanted to know...

[A.G.]

As for Venom smashing the mirror: I think this is just symbolism for smashing the wall between player and player character. Once the mirror is smashed, on the other side is no longer the mirrored character model, but the real Big Boss. It reinforces what Big Boss is saying about Big Boss being you and you being Big Boss. The original and the reflection can no longer be distinguished.

Finally, I think Kojima left a lot of it intentionally vague, because he wanted people to make up there own mind. In the end, it's a more convoluted way to express similar things as at the end of MGS2.

I think that’s the problem and I don’t think it’s similar to MGS2. After learning the truth Venom accepts it. He rejects his own self and accepts his role as Big Boss’ proxy. He gives up his own life to continue serving Big Boss’ vision and in the end dies as such in Outer Heaven. If the message of the game is to avoid being subjugated by charismatic leaders, then Venom fails at this in a spectacular fashion. Venom also represents the player through all this. Hence my point that the entire theme of this game is broken.

Look at MGS2. At the end Raiden made a choice. He rejected the player and became his own man. That’s literally the entire point of this series. So I feel it was very jarring when MGS5 did the exact opposite.

[Cerberus_0408]

Like I said, I don't feel that the game is doing the exact opposite. Smashing the mirror shows Venom rejecting himself. He's choosing what he wants and becomes the antagonist from this.

[A.G.]

But Venom represents the player. So the player is the now the villain? Strange note to end the franchise on, don’t you think?

[Cerberus_0408]

Doesn't the same thing happen in MGS3, though? You're first told to kill your mentor, who had defected to the opposing nation, only to later learn that she was NOT a traitor - she was acting on the orders of her government as part of a conspiracy! Which eventually makes you the bad guy.

[A.G.]

I wouldn’t say it’s the same. First, The Boss doesn’t give you a choice. You have to fight and kill her. That’s the reason why he was so hurt by it. He didn’t have a say in it. She made him kill her. And his hesitation to do it was no different than I would imagine most of the players. As for him going on to be the bad guy, that’s debatable. I still don’t see him as a villain. More of a man that shaped his beliefs through his surroundings, which sadly was war. And again, then mentors so many others. Ocelot, Eva, Fox, Naomi, Wolf, Schneider and all the orphans in Outer Heaven and Zanzibar. In MGS4 he admits choosing the wrong path and dies in peace. I can’t see him as a villain.

As for Venom, he isn’t a character. No personality, no decisions of his own. A pointless shell. I don’t really feel anything for him as we know nothing about him. Just a random guy at MSF.