What was Kojima’s message in Phantom Pain?

[Cerberus_0408]

May 19, 2020 17:19:13 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 18, 2020 19:47:57 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

However much you might defend the game, there are some plot points that are contradicting with the rest of the series. Whatever you know about the games, they are STILL a series. And thus they MUST make sense as a whole. You can't add installments that ruin others.

For example, look at these points.

Why have Big Boss employ a duplicate to be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story."


- Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

Duuude, you haven’t even played most (?) of the games by your own admittance, especially MGSV, and now your copy-pasting A.G.s criticism without even crediting him.

Just play the game, make up your own mind. It’s not a sh*t game. It’s not a perfect game. It’s got nuances. Most of it is good, even great tbh, other parts are awkward and downright embarrassing. However, it’s more than the sum of its parts and either it‘ll click with you or it won‘t.

Go on. If you have some time, it’s available on all the current systems but the Switch, and also pretty cheap. I dare you.

And I feel you're justified. The problem is, I think you are missing my point. Let me clarify exactly what I mean.

My point is that as much as you may like MGS5, there are things in the story that simply don't make sense when you think about the rest of the games. They are a series, and so they HAVE to be logical. You can't have games which say the opposite of what other games say.

[A.G.]

I do believe preference plays a big role here. Things resonate differently for some. However, there are things that we mentioned that are not based in preference. More importantly, when you have the final installment in the series, it is not the time to throw curveballs that contradict much if the existing material. It’s not edgy, it’s not post-modern. It’s just bad writing. Like the comment about what if that’s the real Ocelot personality. Well then the answer is that would suck. It tarnished a really unique and cool character. As for the note about Venom representing the player by being so silent, that’s bad design. It’s the right thing to do when you start a series. Solid Snake started like that. Master Chief in Halo started like that. But you can’t do that as the series evolves, especially when it’s the final installment. That is not the right time to bring in an empty shell that the player will have no attachment to.

Besides, all of these what if assumptions are illogical. The truth is Kiefer was FAR more expensive than David. So they didn’t have the same budget for recording time. Hence far less dialogue. It’s the same reason MGS2 had more codec calls than cutscenes, even when the characters stood next to each other. Budgets, deadlines... it’s a thing. Plus Kojima clearly gave up on the canon and was throwing in whatever he felt like by that point. A Zone of the Enders level mech in 1984? Sure, why not! Make an Otacon lookalike into a hated, murdering a-hole? Now we’re cooking! Strip all the personality and charm from the cast? Game of the year, baby!

MGS5 is the equivalent of Game of Thrones Season 8. Strange changes in characters, underwhelming plot resolutions and shocking moments for the purpose of shock value. And in both cases it all stemmed from writers who were more concerned with moving on to other projects.

[Cerberus_0408]

No disrespect to Kojima, but with MGS5 and the characters it has you kinda get the feeling that he had become a bit crazy when we compare them to the characters that we are already familiar with

[A.G.]

I don’t think it’s crazy. More like bored. He wanted to have new and cool stuff so bad that he didn’t really care if it made sense. For a series that is as story-heavy as Metal Gear, it’s troubling when the director publicly admits that the last installment will creat retcons.

kotaku.com/metal-gear-solid-v-might-break-canon-but-kojima-says-t-1462498245

"The most important part is writing something that is fun, something that is impressive, something that is better than it was before," Kojima said. "So sometimes in the interest of doing this, of having a better experience, we sacrifice some consistencies in the story. I hope the fans and players understand this, but I need to write the best we can, even if there are some small discrepancies."

That’s in 2013! Given how the game turned out it was clear he lost interest in the existing story. And he is wrong about what writing is in the context of this situation. If you are starting something new, then yes, absolutely. But when you are concluding an existing story, especially with a middle chapter that links everything together, that is the opposite of what you should do.

And guess what, time determines everything. MGS5 will not stand the test of time like the other games. How many top PS4 or top of this generation lists is it on? Now compare that to MGS1-4.

[fgdj2000]

May 20, 2020 0:43:21 GMT -5 A.G. said:

I do believe preference plays a big role here. Things resonate differently for some. However, there are things that we mentioned that are not based in preference. More importantly, when you have the final installment in the series, it is not the time to throw curveballs that contradict much if the existing material. It’s not edgy, it’s not post-modern. It’s just bad writing.

First, there WAS already a final installment in the series. It threw a ton of retcons out there that came out of nowhere, but we've discussed that elsewhere, so I'll leave that statement as is. While for you those retcons worked, they didn't for me and I'm not alone. So, your opinion in this case isn't fact. Metal Gear has always retconned things. Like when Big Boss apparently told Snake in Zanzibar Land that he was his father, which never happened in the actual game, not even the post 2004 versions, that changed character names and in-game-art. Sure, you can infer from the dialogue that Big Boss told Snake this sometime earlier, but that's not different from inferring that Donald Anderson oversaw the A.I. construction of the Patriots while Zero was a vegetable, or that Venom Snake was not only Big Boss' best soldier, but also fiercely loyal, and therefore the best choice for leading Outer Heaven while Big Boss was undercover in FOXHOUND, despite looking exactly like Big Boss and potentially giving him away. To me, it honestly looks like a double standard to accept the retcons from the games you liked and treating them like they don't cause any issues (keyword Ocelot's new arm and Big Boss' motivations behind Outer Heaven), while the retcons from later games which you didn't enjoy, are all contradictory and bad (while I think it even fixed some of the earlier issues - and again, I'm not alone). Don't get me wrong, you don't have to like those games or their changes and can damn them to hell, I you want. But your opinion in this case isn't fact, as you seem to claim.

Like the comment about what if that’s the real Ocelot personality. Well then the answer is that would suck. It tarnished a really unique and cool character.

Admittedly not exactly the best example. I'm the last one to say the game is flawless in its storytelling. But it's issues to me a more real story issues like static (and wasted potential) characters (Miller, Ocelot, Code Talker, Eli), pacing and dialogue, not necessarily the lore.

As for the note about Venom representing the player by being so silent, that’s bad design. It’s the right thing to do when you start a series. Solid Snake started like that. Master Chief in Halo started like that. But you can’t do that as the series evolves, especially when it’s the final installment. That is not the right time to bring in an empty shell that the player will have no attachment to.

Why not? All the other main character's arcs were complete. The entire series was finished and Konami still wanted more. Isn't it more interesting that Kojima tried to do something unique and tried to truly involve you personally more, rather than giving us a self serving run of the mill interquel that showed us everything we already knew? Metal Gear was always about more than that. It wasn't just about the lore and the characters, it was also about the players themselves and teaching them something and going beyond just pure escapism. I'm sorry the experience didn't land for you, but again, your opinion isn't fact.

Besides, all of these what if assumptions are illogical. The truth is Kiefer was FAR more expensive than David. So they didn’t have the same budget for recording time. Hence far less dialogue. It’s the same reason MGS2 had more codec calls than cutscenes, even when the characters stood next to each other. Budgets, deadlines... it’s a thing.

Oh, yes, they are. I'm not naive. Deadlines I think played a huge role in why Chapter 2 feels so rushed and weird. As for Kiefer Sutherland; he didn't just voice Snake, he actually acted him out. Kojima's idea was to have Snake act more through expressions than actual words. (Like "Metal Gear?!" "Key Cards?!" "the Shagohod?!"). What you make of the results, is up to you, but Venom Snake's quietness (no pun intended) is absolutely by design not budget.

Plus Kojima clearly gave up on the canon and was throwing in whatever he felt like by that point. A Zone of the Enders level mech in 1984? Sure, why not!

It only worked at all, because the psychic kid powered it. So, it's basically a failure. Zone of the Enders machines were far more capable than even the psychic-powered Sahelanthropus.

Make an Otacon lookalike into a hated, murdering a-hole? Now we’re cooking! Strip all the personality and charm from the cast? Game of the year, baby!

Now you're just being mean, man. I'm sorry, Huey didn't land for you, but for me it was a great twist and evoked a good sense of betrayal. And come on, how is "They played us like a damn fiddle!!!" and "Such lust for revenge... WHOoOoOoOoO?!!!" not charming?

MGS5 is the equivalent of Game of Thrones Season 8. Strange changes in characters, underwhelming plot resolutions and shocking moments for the purpose of shock value. And in both cases it all stemmed from writers who were more concerned with moving on to other projects.

What? Game of Thrones Season 7-8 were your classic run-of-the-mill fantasy show of good vs. evil and heroes staying safe till the end. They were a betrayal of the complexity of the show early on. MGSV was almost the polar opposite, trying to find the most creative solution to bring a series, that had long been ended anyways full circle. Re-complication retcons that had needlessly streamlined certain aspects of the lore and - dare I say it - restoring the spirit of the earlier games in the series.

We'll never agree on this. That's fine, I respect your opinion, A.G. (and Cerberus0408 as well). I just have an issue, how you express your opinions as facts. I'm last to tell you MGSV is perfect, but it's a lot better than each of you give it credit for, and a hell of a lot better than many other games out there.

[fgdj2000]

May 20, 2020 9:23:21 GMT -5 A.G. said:

MGS5 will not stand the test of time like the other games. How many top PS4 or top of this generation lists is it on? Now compare that to MGS1-4.

Those are fairly recent. And it's among the TOP 10 in each. 

I honestly feel even MGS1-4 haven't stood the test of time, in part, because they were never ported. There are far more mainstream series out there than Metal Gear. As sad as I am, but Metal Gear is done d will soon be forgotten, only remembered as a quirky classic series, unless Konami re-releases the games in new HD Remasters. 

[Cerberus_0408]

I am pretty sure Konami has ALREADY released them again in HD. I mean...dude...you must be forgetting the High definition collection. And the legacy collection!

[Cerberus_0408]

Also, as to your remarks about AG's post, I feel that the previous games had already established many things that are set in stone. To have MGS5 blatantly render all these previously established facts essentially meaningless is really a factor that causes the game to be less impactful.

[A.G.]

I had a lengthy reply prepared, but f...ck it. Doesn’t really matter. It’s a game that’s the best at nothing, especially being a Metal Gear game.

[Cerberus_0408]

i was actually curious for your response lmfao

[fgdj2000]

May 21, 2020 22:11:37 GMT -5 A.G. said:

I had a lengthy reply prepared, but f...ck it. Doesn’t really matter. It’s a game that’s the best at nothing, especially being a Metal Gear game.

Fair enough. I'm sorry you see it that way. 

[fgdj2000]

May 21, 2020 19:34:52 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

I am pretty sure Konami has ALREADY released them again in HD. I mean...dude...you must be forgetting the High definition collection. And the legacy collection!

That's true, but those releases are years ago. The HD Collection is 9 Years old! The Legacy collection 7 years. That's a long time when it comes to digital media. And while I and a lot of die-hards keep their older consoles alive, many "regular" gamers sell them. Also, there is an entire generation now all grown up that started with the current gen of consoles. Which means, if they don't dig deep, they won't be able to experience the series. 

The best way to experience the older games (pre-MGSV) on current hardware, is getting the HD Collection digitally for Xbox 360, since the XboxOne is backwards compatible. So, that's a sizable chunk of the series (MG1, MG2, MGS2, MGS3, MGSPW), but two really important installments are missing (MGS1 and MGS4). And if you play on PS4, PC or Switch you're out of luck.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 22, 2020 0:20:42 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 21, 2020 19:34:52 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

I am pretty sure Konami has ALREADY released them again in HD. I mean...dude...you must be forgetting the High definition collection. And the legacy collection!

And while I and a lot of die-hards keep their older consoles alive, many "regular" gamers sell them.

True. I sold my PS3 and didn't get any console to replace it.

The best way to experience the older games (pre-MGSV) on current hardware, is getting the HD Collection digitally for Xbox 360, since the XboxOne is backwards compatible. So, that's a sizable chunk of the series (MG1, MG2, MGS2, MGS3, MGSPW), but two really important installments are missing (MGS1 and MGS4). And if you play on PS4, PC or Switch you're out of luck.

The PS3 is the best console for either the HDC or the Legacy collection. The Vita only has MGS2 and 3, but not PW. And as for the PC, can't you get the games from Steam or something?

[A.G.]

Not much point on discussing it since there isn’t a discussion. You dismiss things that are logic in favor of a personal preference. For example, it doesn’t bother you that the Metal Gears in 1974 and 1984 are far more advanced than in the 90’s or the 2000’s. But hey, gameplay was fun so it makes it ok, right? Magical giant whip that makes mountains... in 1984... with no explanation as to how that works... That ALONE makes MGS5 non canon. End of debate! It also doesn’t bother you that these games strip away everything that was special about the older titles. Tell me, what’s special about the plot of Metal Gear now? That Big Boss is revealed to run a PMC with a walking nuclear tank? Nope... did that 1974. Or is it that it’s the first time Snake and Big Boss did battle? Nope, striped that away too. How about Otacon building Rex in 2005? Doesn’t mean sh*t now that we have his father building Sahelanthropus 20 years prior. Many more examples like this, including the full third act of the series finale.

You defend a game that took a big sh*t on everything that made the others special. You throw logic out the window because you like some of the plot twists. And yet you think it’s nothing like Game Of Thrones Season 8. It’s EXACTLY like it.

[Cerberus_0408]

Having been a guy who just doesn't have the patience to watch series shows, I'm actually curious for how GoT season 8 took a dump on the previous seasons

Can you explain please?