What was Kojima’s message in Phantom Pain?

[fgdj2000]

It's definitely not the same. In MGS2, Kojima was saying "The series is over, you'll carry your experiences with you, go out now, find your own meaning, live", while in MGSV he pretty much just says "The series is over, you'll carry your experiences with you. What you do now, is up to you."

You can keep playing MGSV and become Big Boss' puppet, to be killed by you as Solid Snake later on, or you can turn off the console and live. I don't know if Kojima actually meant anything with you becoming Big Boss in MG1 other then closing the loop in a surprising and clever way, tbh. As we've said before, Kojima was long done with the series and was trying to do his own thing within the confines of a well-established property he either was forced to continue working on or he felt pressured to continue.

[Cerberus_0408]

For sure there are far too many mistakes compared to redeeming factors in MGS5. The very fact that the player character then becomes the antagonist in MG1 and 2 just shows how the story was ran into the ground.

[fgdj2000]

May 18, 2020 1:27:39 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

For sure there are far too many mistakes compared to redeeming factors in MGS5.

On that we disagree. It might be a weak Metal Gear game, but as a stealth game it far outclasses anything apart from maybe Hitman. And while the story isn’t told well, it’s still a great story of loss, identity and betrayal.

The very fact that the player character then becomes the antagonist in MG1 and 2 just shows how the story was ran into the ground.

That’s just 1. wrong (the player only becomes the final boss in MG1) and 2. not an argument, just a statement. Can you please explain your statement? Why does this one thing show that Kojima ran the story into the ground?

[Cerberus_0408]

Well...the other games have always been smooth and fluid in their themes. This one is just...meh. Venom is such a hollow shell compared to the player characters from previous games. All of them generally find their own way to live their lives. Not so for Venom.

I can bitch and moan until the cows come home about why it's so crappy. AG has had MULTIPLE topics about the story falling so flat. But I agree with you, it is indeed a weak MG game. Kojima should ONLY have made games until MGS4. In the case of PW, PO, Revengeance, this one - they're best in an alternate universe. Or maybe an expanded universe.

[Cerberus_0408]

Secondly, can you explain how the player is only the final boss in MG1, but not MG2 ?

[fgdj2000]

May 18, 2020 8:27:03 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Well...the other games have always been smooth and fluid in their themes. This one is just...meh. Venom is such a hollow shell compared to the player characters from previous games. All of them generally find their own way to live their lives. Not so for Venom.

I think this was part of the idea. Kojima wanted to make the player and Snake basically one. Venom Snake is intentionally a blank and almost a silent protagonist, so you can fill the void with yourself or your own idea of the character. There are some hints of a personality that is far quieter, empathic and less hateful than Big Boss. Personally, I like that subtlety. I felt weirdly close to that character. He felt less like a close friend (like Solid Snake or even Big Boss) and more like myself, so, I guess, for me, Kojima succeeded. "Shining Lights, Even in Death" and "A Quiet Exit" were genuinely painful and sad to play for me (in a good, intended way); so was the gradual reveal at how awful (and also in some ways how right about Diamond Dogs) Huey was. This is good stuff!

The not so great stuff, like Eli's role in the story, the awkward jeep ride (poor only in execution, not necessarily in content), the way how chapter 2 felt quickly cobbled together (because it probably was!), these to me all pale against some of the beautiful moments the rest of the game has given me. And part of why these things hit so close or me is a) how much I had connected with Peace Walker before, and b) how subdued Venom as a protagonist was, managing to thin the line between player and player character like no other game in the series.

[fgdj2000]

May 18, 2020 8:33:10 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Secondly, can you explain how the player is only the final boss in MG1, but not MG2 ?

[Cerberus_0408]

May 18, 2020 9:03:14 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 18, 2020 8:27:03 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Well...the other games have always been smooth and fluid in their themes. This one is just...meh. Venom is such a hollow shell compared to the player characters from previous games. All of them generally find their own way to live their lives. Not so for Venom.

I think this was part of the idea. Kojima wanted to make the player and Snake basically one. Venom Snake is intentionally a blank and almost a silent protagonist, so you can fill the void with yourself or your own idea of the character. There are some hints of a personality that is far quieter, empathic and less hateful than Big Boss. Personally, I like that subtlety. I felt weirdly close to that character. He felt less like a close friend (like Solid Snake or even Big Boss) and more like myself, so, I guess, for me, Kojima succeeded. "Shining Lights, Even in Death" and "A Quiet Exit" were genuinely painful and sad to play for me (in a good, intended way); so was the gradual reveal at how awful (and also in some ways how right about Diamond Dogs) Huey was. This is good stuff!

The not so great stuff, like Eli's role in the story, the awkward jeep ride (poor only in execution, not necessarily in content), the way how chapter 2 felt quickly cobbled together (because it probably was!), these to me all pale against some of the beautiful moments the rest of the game has given me. And part of why these things hit so close or me is a) how much I had connected with Peace Walker before, and b) how subdued Venom as a protagonist was, managing to thin the line between player and player character like no other game in the series.

However much you might defend the game, there are some plot points that are contradicting with the rest of the series. Whatever you know about the games, they are STILL a series. And thus they MUST make sense as a whole. You can't add installments that ruin others.

For example, look at these points.

Why have Big Boss employ a duplicate to be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story."


- Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

[Cerberus_0408]

May 18, 2020 9:03:43 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

May 18, 2020 8:33:10 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

Secondly, can you explain how the player is only the final boss in MG1, but not MG2 ?

As for this point, you can bash me for saying this again, but I'm gonna quote a Wikipedia article.

From MG1

Having lost Metal Gear and much of his force, Big Boss seemingly starts the self-destruct sequence for the compound, and promises he will not die alone; Snake will join him. Snake defeats Big Boss in the last battle and escapes the Outer Heaven compound as it crumbles in flames behind him.[c] After the end credits, a message from Big Boss is displayed saying that he will meet Solid Snake again.

MG2

As he tries to escape, Snake meets BIG BOSS. Having lost his equipment and with no weapons at his disposal, Snake is forced to improvise using the only items he can find: a lighter and aerosol can. Fashioning a makeshift flamethrower, Snake defeats Big Boss for the second time. Snake and Holly escape together, and they deliver the OILIX formula to Campbell.

[A.G.]

Guess it all comes down to preference. A lot of the things you mentioned were a minus for me. I found Huey’s arc just needless and there for shock value. Basically here is a guy just like Otacon that you like but this time he is an a-hole. Brilliant... Same with Venom. We like the cool Solid Snake and the charismatic Big Boss, so here is a shell without personality. And just for fun let’s change the voice actor, because that facial acting that “only an experienced actor can do” worked out so well! lol What a load of crap. Ocelot wasn’t Ocelot, at all. Skullface, Codetalker and Quiet were forgettable at best. The characters in MG2 on the MSX had more personality and charm than the cast of MGS5. Miller was the only one that I thought stood strong as a character. A lot of emotion there. The rest were as generic as a genome soldier.

[Cerberus_0408]

I think quite many characters were, in essence, a parody of what we normally meet. Quiet for example is like a naked Sniper Wolf, but is unable to talk.Ocelot, like you said was a laughable version of his original self, Volgin was dead but resurrected somehow...cartoony, cartoony, cartoony.

[A.G.]

Oh yeah, forgot about Volgin and Mantis. Wonder if that connects with the Phantom Pain title. You know, feeling like something should be there when it isn’t. Strange way to make a point.

[Cerberus_0408]

Yeah i said it before that a phantom pain probably refers to a symptom like that xD

[fgdj2000]

May 18, 2020 19:54:26 GMT -5 A.G. said:

Guess it all comes down to preference. A lot of the things you mentioned were a minus for me. I found Huey’s arc just needless and there for shock value. Basically here is a guy just like Otacon that you like but this time he is an a-hole. Brilliant... Same with Venom. We like the cool Solid Snake and the charismatic Big Boss, so here is a shell without personality. And just for fun let’s change the voice actor, because that facial acting that “only an experienced actor can do” worked out so well! lol What a load of crap. Ocelot wasn’t Ocelot, at all. Skullface, Codetalker and Quiet were forgettable at best. The characters in MG2 on the MSX had more personality and charm than the cast of MGS5. Miller was the only one that I thought stood strong as a character. A lot of emotion there. The rest were as generic as a genome soldier.

I wouldn’t call it preference. I‘d call it impact. For me, most of it landed, for you it didn‘t. I also, frankly, think you didn’t quite get the game, from what you say about Venom Snake. He wasn‘t meant to be a cool action hero with personality, he was meant to be you, a silent protagonist. The story wasn’t told in a liniere fashion, like a movie, more like an archaeology project. It‘s not worse than the previous approach, it’s just different. So I guess, you’re right about preference, after all. I was pretty open at what Kojima might throw at us next, you were by your own admittance done with the series, and as such, Didn’t really want anything else. Which is fine.

One last thing: don’t you think, a master schemer like Icelot isn’t as crazy as he always acts? That maybe he is playing a role in his previous appearances? Maybe this is our first glimpse at the true Ocelot? I think this is really fascinating... then again, the creepy part is, that he knows you are being used... and he plays along.

[fgdj2000]

May 18, 2020 19:47:57 GMT -5 Cerberus_0408 said:

May 18, 2020 9:03:14 GMT -5 fgdj2000 said:

I think this was part of the idea. Kojima wanted to make the player and Snake basically one. Venom Snake is intentionally a blank and almost a silent protagonist, so you can fill the void with yourself or your own idea of the character. There are some hints of a personality that is far quieter, empathic and less hateful than Big Boss. Personally, I like that subtlety. I felt weirdly close to that character. He felt less like a close friend (like Solid Snake or even Big Boss) and more like myself, so, I guess, for me, Kojima succeeded. "Shining Lights, Even in Death" and "A Quiet Exit" were genuinely painful and sad to play for me (in a good, intended way); so was the gradual reveal at how awful (and also in some ways how right about Diamond Dogs) Huey was. This is good stuff!

The not so great stuff, like Eli's role in the story, the awkward jeep ride (poor only in execution, not necessarily in content), the way how chapter 2 felt quickly cobbled together (because it probably was!), these to me all pale against some of the beautiful moments the rest of the game has given me. And part of why these things hit so close or me is a) how much I had connected with Peace Walker before, and b) how subdued Venom as a protagonist was, managing to thin the line between player and player character like no other game in the series.

However much you might defend the game, there are some plot points that are contradicting with the rest of the series. Whatever you know about the games, they are STILL a series. And thus they MUST make sense as a whole. You can't add installments that ruin others.

For example, look at these points.

Why have Big Boss employ a duplicate to be in charge of the one thing you don’t want the Patriots to know you are in charge of? lol There is no logic here.

Zero was brain dead since the 80s according to MGS5, right? So who was in charge of the Patriots? Who made the decisions to launch the AIs and imprison Big Boss after Zanzibar? MGS4 clearly outlines that Eva and Ocelot were trying to stop Zero. Why? He was a vegetable even during the events of Phantom Pain. And if it’s Paramedic and Sigint, then everything would’ve ended in MGS1. Gray Fox killed Paramedic and Ocelot killed Sigint.

The Zero/Big Boss thing was my biggest issue as it’s actually not explained. But it’s key to everything. Eva and Ocelot had a decade and a half plan to free Big Boss and take down Zero. But if he was brain dead since the 80’s, who was the enemy? That’s not explained and it’s not a good idea to guess. We don’t know when the AIs took control, but clearly their full potential wasn’t in the mix until MGS2. That’s where I have the issue. These things weren’t a problem until we got the “missing links”. Zero and Big Boss we’re friends. They had an ideological falling out. Zero wanted global control. Big Boss wanted perpetual war. The AIs combined the two and we got the war economy where everything was guided by the Patriots AI. It just made sense. Throwing MSF, Diamond Dogs and Venom complicated the story without offering new explanations on how this impacted events in existing canon.

My other issue is having MSF and Diamond Dogs before Outer Heaven. They are basically the same thing. So what’s the point of building Outer Heaven? It’s just another PMC, and frankly one less equipped than what we got with MSF. Outer Heaven should be the first. It’s like saying we had two more Death Stars before Episode IV. That just negates the importance of that film’s story."


- Why would Eva, herself a Patriot, describe a decades-long conflict between Zero and Big Boss when there wasn’t one?

- Why would Big Boss have his double in Outer Heaven when he wanted to keep his involvement in Outer Heaven a secret?

- How could Zero make Big Boss the key to the Patriot AI In 1999 when he was brain dead since the mid 80s?

- Why would Ocelot and Eva allow Big Boss to be locked away in 1999 if Zero was out of action? More so, who would make that decision? Neither Sigint nor Paramedic had a feud with Big Boss. And according to MGS5 neither did Zero. So... why would this even happen? Big Boss being the key to the Patriots AI is only logical if Zero is active and had a feud with Big Boss. Any other scenario clashes with the main story of MGS4.

Duuude, you haven’t even played most (?) of the games by your own admittance, especially MGSV, and now your copy-pasting A.G.s criticism without even crediting him.

Just play the game, make up your own mind. It’s not a sh*t game. It’s not a perfect game. It’s got nuances. Most of it is good, even great tbh, other parts are awkward and downright embarrassing. However, it’s more than the sum of its parts and either it‘ll click with you or it won‘t.

Go on. If you have some time, it’s available on all the current systems but the Switch, and also pretty cheap. I dare you.