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Post by A.G. on Sept 14, 2015 1:06:22 GMT -5
The whole effort of the Missing Link never sat well with me. I think it's because Kojima chose to create new stories instead of expanding on existing material. I look at Eva's speech in Act 3 of MGS4 and wonder why the hell that never became a game. Seems like the formation of the Patriots warrants more than just a post credits call in MPO. Big Boss' departure should've been fully examined and not just refrenced in some tape recordings in MPW. Les Enfants Terrible! C'mon! This sh*t practically writes it self. And how about the war between Zero and Big Boss? Where is that? Three missing links and it's still missing!
If there was a missing link game, say a real MGS5, this is is how simple it would be. Please note that having a missing link is a problematic concept as it ruins the surprise of the Big Boss revealing as the leader of Outer Heaven. But, if you have to do it, this would be my suggestion:
5 Acts, same as MGS4.
Act 1. 1970. Formation of the Patriots. Mission to infiltrate the CIA to retrieve the Philosopher's Legacy by the newly established FoxHound. Ends with Zero, Big Boss, and Ocelot discussing their plans.
Act 2. 1971. Shows Big Boss and Zero start to part ways. Big Boss is severely wounded on a mission. Cloning project is initiated.
Act 3. 1972. Big Boss learns about the clones and leaves the Patriots. You see a start of Soldiers Without Borders. Solid and Liquid are born. Solidus is created.
Act 4. 1985. Big Boss starts the ground work for Outer Heaven while raising his army and feuding with Zero. Obtains Granin's plans for Metal Gear. Gray Fox is introduced.
Act 5. 1994. Big Boss returns to Zero, hiding his true objective of an Outer Heaven uprising. FoxHound is reformed and Big Boss assumes command. Madnar is kidnapped and forced to perfect Metal Gear TX55. During a test run Madnar pilots the Metal Gear and Big Boss is forced to fight him. After the fight Madnar is shown his kidnapped daughter to be forced to make repairs while Big Boss goes after a nuke.
Epilogue. 1995. News of Outer Heaven reach Zero. Gray Fox is sent it and vanishes. The game ends young Solid Snake walking in to a mission briefing with Big Boss.
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Post by solidelman on Sept 14, 2015 1:37:33 GMT -5
Expanding on existing material doesn't make for an interesting game, to be honest. You said it yourself: "this is how simple it would be".
Simple, because I know the story and its results already. Why would I want to play through a story I've heard over and over again? As much as MGS3 was a prequel with an already existing character as protagonist, it works for me because I know nothing about Big Boss' backstory. Its story takes place decades before the first Metal Gear, so there's no need to worry about maintaining the continuity. At least not that much, anyway. Kojima is free to be original, to use fresh ideas, to surprise the player with an interesting narrative full of twists and turns I'll never see coming.
MGSV was touted as a game that lead up to events I'd already played. I knew that Big Boss became evil and that Miller somehow went up against him years later. Merely seeing these events unfold would make for a forgettable game. A new story at least carries some promise, but the restrictive nature of a missing link makes it near impossible to go as far as it could if it was, say, a sequel or even a new IP, not bound to respecting the rules set up by chronologically future installments.
With MGSV's whole premise and the problems going on at Konami, Kojima seems to have set himself up to fail. He just can't tell an interesting story and keep the extremely prohibitive continuity intact at the same time. Just look at the 3 missing links we've had and how much they've failed to fulfill their objective, every new attempt worse than the last.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 14, 2015 20:30:04 GMT -5
And the funny part is that if you leave them out, MGS3 connects so well to MG1. You know Big Boss is torn at the end of MGS3 but he is also a hero. So him leading Foxhound is very logical. However, the big reveal of him being the man behind Outer Heaven works as well. The story connects without creating a spoiler.
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fgdj2000
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Post by fgdj2000 on Sept 18, 2015 1:01:11 GMT -5
I think you are being unfair here. Especially since you, once again, just evaluate the games on basis of being a story. I think the gameplay in this game is great. At first it can be a bit underwhelming, doing just regular missions without a lot of choice with the equipment. Once you unlock all the buddys and get into the base management, you get so many different tools to tackle each mission. If you don't use them and don't experiment, fine, but you are missing out on a lot of the fun. As for the story, I can't really say much about it now, really, since I want it to sink in first. Overall, my first impression is, that story was few and far between, which I think was really strange in a MG game, but whenever it came it was a surprise and I quite enjoyed the story moments. As for the ending... I can understand why people hate it. It was a controversial move and I hate that those idiotic youtubers with idiotic theories are actually proven right. But overall, I think it was masterfully set up. Starting with the doctor who wants to change your face in the beginning, to the way how a lot of people react to "Snake" (huey comes to mind) to the fact that Venom Snake seems uncharacteristically silent for most of the game, almost like an empty shell (no pun intended). He just felt strangely off for most of the game to me. So I didn't hate it and thought it was an interesting way to resolve it, but I'm not sure what to make of it, yet. So far, I think the series has come full circle. Like the early MSX2 games, Snake is more of an empty vessel for the player to occupy and the MGSV is also much more gameplay focused rather than story focused. And you, the player, end up being the first final boss in the whole Metal Gear series. And the real Big Boss saying to Ahab that he has also become Big Boss now, felt like Kojima telling the player that we have become Kojima, now. As in, he taught us everything he could and from here on out, it's our story, our life. That was a great moment imo, and a nice way to close the metanarrative of the series. In the end, I'd just say this: I commend Kojima for taking risks and trying to do something different with the series (he was probably pressured into making an MGS game, otherwise this might have been a new I.P. even - note how in all the trailers the "Metal Gear Solid V" disappears from the logo) and for achieving at least most of what he intended. I can understand that many fans are pissed off or underwhelmed. But maybe, it's in part because it has been 7 years since MGS4 and expectations were so high, they couldn't be fulfilled.
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fgdj2000
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Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide.
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Post by fgdj2000 on Sept 18, 2015 1:05:59 GMT -5
btw. A.G. will you add MGSV to your site or will you leave it as it is?
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Post by edward18 on Sept 18, 2015 3:39:58 GMT -5
MGS3 was the only prequel that was ever needed. With all this other prequel sh*t all it's doing is cramming more stuff in that shouldn't be there. What they should be doing is CONNECTING to MGS3 to MG1. But they don't. The only one that tried was Portable Ops and that might not even be canon at this point. But with Peace Walker you have crap like these super advanced mechs that go beyond even REX and Ray in the 80s (and that for some reason all look like REX rather than leading up to the TX-55 design), Otacon's dad for no other reason than "hey, it's Otacon!" when it should be Dr. Madnar, high-tech AIs, and a rather ludicrous plot-twist of there being two Big Bosses simply to explain how he survives the first game (though I personally do like Venom Snake as a character).
And you know...I would be fine, FINE, with Peace Walker and 5 IF they happened in modern times. I could see that type of crap happening as the buildup to the all-out global disaster in 4. Maybe finally explore Philanthropy and the variants of Metal Gear that had leaked onto the black market. But no, instead we have a god damn Gundam before the "never-before-heard-of" secret weapon called Metal Gear that Grey Fox found out about had been created.
Like seriously, why are people like Ocelot and Liquid going gaga over REX in Solid 1 if Liquid himself piloted the best mech in the series when he was a CHILD? Why is every single thing in the prequels leading up to REX's design, a design implied that Otacon had come up with out of his love for anime, when it should instead be leading to the TX-55's? Why is Big Boss suddenly shifted so severely personality-wise after the prequels? Are Big Boss and Venom Snake working together or are they at each other's throats by Metal Gear 1? How the hell does Ocelot know that Liquid and Solid are fated to fight each other someday? Why flip-flop so much between if Major Zero is good or bad? Why did they never get to a proper Outer Heaven in the prequels? Why never show Zanzibar Land? And why is the only advice that Miller gives you in MG2 how "you can survive on your own spit"?
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Sept 18, 2015 8:00:03 GMT -5
Disagree about this; MPW confirms PO is canon. lmfao "We can finally put that crap at San Hyranymo behind us". That means that crap happened. lol Even though the line is a great slam on the game it also means MPO is canon.
Yeah, I have to concur here. Like, Peace Walker and Zeke were more technologically advanced in 1974 than TX-55 and D in the 90's. Heck, Rex in 2005 wasn't even that mobile. Zeke was bouncing around as well as Ray and had technology to deflect missiles. How the bloody hell is TX-55 a revolutionary threat in 1995 when Metal Gears were bigger, faster, and more advanced in the 70's and 80's? Playing these games chronologically now lessens the importance of earlier installments. PW essentially sent MG1, MG2 and MGS1 down the drain.
Indeed. What I absolutely CANNOT stand is that the new games are erasing the big reveals, watering down significant moments, and exploiting emotional parts of the earlier games. MGS4 was partially guilty of this, but only on a few notes. Peace Walker and MGS5 are raping the series.
I'd say the short answer to these queries is that Kojima is more interested in shovin' out more games for (insert sarcasm here) so-called 'hardcore fanatics' (insert sarcasm here) to invest their resources in, but without them actually giving a sh*t about the story having more questions than answers. If you slap the words 'METAL GEAR' on any piece of trash, dumb f...ckers will buy it, it's a proven fact.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 19, 2015 17:45:19 GMT -5
btw. A.G. will you add MGSV to your site or will you leave it as it is? Highly doubtful. The site was a tribute to the games I respected. Metal Gear to MGS4 is a complete saga, and that's what the site was devoted to. I have no respect for what the "missing links" have offered the series. In regards to MGS5 gameplay, it's a blast. No doubt. I really can offer anything new to all the reviews, but I've played the game consistently since release and here is my brief rundown of pros and cons: Pros: Fluid and adaptive gameplay. A lot variety in how to approach missions. Good rewards for developing your base. High replay value with a "have it your way" approach. Hospital chapter - f...cking awesome! Cons: Story. More contradictions, retcons, and watering down of existing games. Characters. Empty and underdeveloped. Skullface is a letdown. Suhelanthropus is a joke. Ocelot is all wrong. And let's not forget the evil Otacon clone... Ugh! I liked Quiet and Miller. That's it. Boss fights. Just... Bad... Even MG1 boss fights were more memorable. Landscapes are barren. MGS3 outdoors were full of life. MGS5 is full of empty nothing. Useless main missions without much relevant plot. Kill this random guy, extract this random guy...eh... Incomplete story. Chapter 2 is mostly previous ops on frustrating difficulty. Poor structure. Many key moments are actually side ops that you can't replay. No way to rewatch cutscene. How about starting a new game? No option to do that. Overall the game feels empty and unfinished. After 7 years of development I expected more. Even if the story wasn't a letdown, there are more negatives about the game structure than positives. The gameplay is the only element that was done well. All other aspects are flawed.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Sept 19, 2015 17:50:47 GMT -5
It's f...ckin' hilarious, y'know. I was reading this article on MGS wiki and came across this:
'Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is a canonical installment in the Metal Gear series.' Yet, look at the plotline making little sense. I wonder how the bloody hell Kojima can turn this series into a cash cow despite that so MANY things just don't fit together in the general story in MG/ MGS.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 19, 2015 18:24:38 GMT -5
Mostly it's for new fans. Metal Gear got big in 1998. That's 17 years ago. A lot of the gaming community of today wasn't even born yet. And most of them aren't going to go play old games, especially the MSX ones. So... They don't care.
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Sept 19, 2015 18:38:08 GMT -5
I strongly believe that had expanded universe sh*t like PO, PW etc never been made, the fanbase could be a LOT larger.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 20, 2015 2:36:46 GMT -5
In regards to the MGS3 to MG1 transition, there are two versions.
Original version (as of MGS4):
Big Boss receives his title at the end of MGS3 but is torn over the guilt of killing his mentor. He secretly establishes Outer Heaven while running FoxHound. He sends in Solid Snake in 1995 because he is a clone (something Big Boss always hated) and a rookie who is unlikely to complete the mission. The shocking reveal at the end is that Big Boss is the man behind Outer Heaven, something that is logical given his feeling for The Boss. Big Boss survives the incident and establishes Zanzibar Land.
New version (as of MGS5):
Starts out just like the original, but at the end the Big Boss reveal as the man behind Outer Heaven doesn't happen. It's actually Venom Snake, though as far as Solid Snake was concerned it was Big Boss. Solid Snake kills Venom. Big Boss leaves in secret to establish Zanzibar Land.
So my question is this, how is the existence of Venom Snake helpful to Big Boss? If you are secretly developing a base that will launch an insurrection against the Patriots while working for the U.S. Government as cover (commanding Foxhound), how is it beneficial to have a stand in at Outer Heaven who is your double? Wouldn't it be more logical to have someone different? This way the enemy doesn't associate Big Boss with Outer Heaven. Venom or real Big Boss, it's the same face that's getting paired up with the Outer Heaven uprising.
Thoughts?
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Cerberus_0408
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Post by Cerberus_0408 on Sept 20, 2015 2:39:40 GMT -5
I always assumed BB wanted to have a decoy so everybody would believe HE himself had been killed after the events of MG1...at least, they'd believe that until MG2 came out.
The more pressing question, is that if BB is good as seen in MGS3, why the bloody f...ck would he change his mind and become a villian (ie, in MG1)? It really is a mystery.
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Post by solidelman on Sept 20, 2015 11:59:21 GMT -5
So my question is this, how is the existence of Venom Snake helpful to Big Boss? If you are secretly developing a base that will launch an insurrection against the Patriots while working for the U.S. Government as cover (commanding Foxhound), how is it beneficial to have a stand in at Outer Heaven who is your double? Wouldn't it be more logical to have someone different? This way the enemy doesn't associate Big Boss with Outer Heaven. Venom or real Big Boss, it's the same face that's getting paired up with the Outer Heaven uprising. Thoughts? I initially assumed it was to fool Zero, but the tapes reveal that even Zero knew about the decoy. Hell, he even planned the whole thing. Perhaps the AIs created by Sigint knew about Outer Heaven and Big Boss (since Zero knew already) and placing someone else as a stand in wouldn't be so believable. I'm not so sure about the whole thing. MGS4 made it seem as if there was a bitch fight between Zero and Big Boss, but MGSV seems to suggest it was actually BB vs. Patriot AIs, as the real Zero is actually helping him out because they're "old friends". You're tasked with killing your mentor because she apparently defected, but then learn, right after killing her, that you were actually used by your government to cover up their f...ck-up. You had a very special relationship with this mentor that was torn apart to suit the interests of some g-men you probably didn't even care about. Your maternal figure was sacrificed (with her willingness) in order to save the asses of people who probably don't even deserve it. Not only that; everyone will grow up and die believing she was the villain. How would you react? What would your opinion on your government be? If you eventually did something to retaliate, wouldn't that be kind of reasonable from your perspective? You can fill in the gap. MGS3 builds up the gears necessary to understand why MG1's events turn out as they did.
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Post by A.G. on Sept 20, 2015 13:10:43 GMT -5
While I get the creation of Venom Snake I just don't see how it improves the connection to MG1. It just feels like an unnecessary plot twist at the 11th hour. Reminds me of MGS2 when after a 40min cutscene discussing what's going on, Solidus drops the "bombshell" that he was the one who killed Raiden's parents. Seriously, at that point who cares?!
I guess my point is that if Big Boss wanted someone to be the target while he pretended to work for the U.S. Government as the head of Foxhound, it would be more logical to NOT use someone who is your double.
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