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Post by johnkiller118 on Jun 13, 2010 1:00:18 GMT -5
Okay, how about this;
PW revels that you can use technology to simulate a person's will.
Liquid and Ocelot's plans were to fulfill Big Boss' dream of global conflict (though for Liquid, it was more to "surpass" him than "fulfill." Ocelot just loved the guy.)
So, they used Strangelove's research in AI, and adapted it to nanotechnology. Liquid put all his "memories" (similar to Strangelove putting the Boss' "memories" inside Peace Walker's mammal pod) in the nanomachines inside him. Since Liquid and Ocelot were on the same page, he chose Ocelot as his "host."
Since Ocelot was missing an arm, and Liquid's was up for grabs (because, you know, something DID happen to him), Ocelot attached Liquid's arm where his was missing. So, along with a combination of psychotherapy hypnotic suggestion, he was able to become Liquid Ocelot.
Well, almost. Since the the nanomachines now "think" like Liquid, there was only one way to bring Liquid out; get close to his mortal enemy, Solid Snake.
However, the timing was all wrong. The Liquid persona didn't fit in with Ocelot's plans during the Tanker and Big Shell Incidents. That's why he resisted.
But it didn't matter. At the end of MGS2, "Liquid" had completely taken over Ocelot's mind.
tl;dr: He's Ocelot in physical form, but his mind is Liquid's, in a sense.
The only thing about Liquid Ocelot that was retconned was the voice, and the Big Boss age thing (though he could have just been given false information, like how he was told that he was the inferior one.)
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Post by A.G. on Jun 13, 2010 18:29:12 GMT -5
There are many possibilities but I refuse to link Peace Walker to MGS2. Way too much time has passed between the making of the two games. I think all that matters in the end is:
MGS2: Liquid legitimately possesed Ocelot. Not an act as is proven by voice and by instant hair change. The possession was triggered by Solid Snake, as such was unrealiable for Ocelot's goal.
MGS4: Liquid's arm was replaced and the hypnotherapy was used to create a more stable and convincing act.
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Post by philanthropy on Jul 3, 2010 22:34:21 GMT -5
So nanomachines can give you immortality but they can't change your voice and hair? Don't you think that having the arm of the man he's trying to impersonate would be enough to mess with his irreparably hypnotized psyche?
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Post by A.G. on Jul 4, 2010 20:37:05 GMT -5
Hey, I never said Kojima didn't mess things up pretty bad with the plot. He twisted up a lot of issues and made some retcons. But the fact is, even official sources state that Liquid's arm interfered with Ocelot's psyche, that's why he removed it. That's is a canon fact.
And watch the ending one more time. Big Boss clearly states that despite all the advances in technology, they were never able to turn one person completely into another. And the fact is that it's Liquid's voice in MGS2.
Brainwashed/Nanomachines Ocelot - Ocelot's voice.
Possessed/Liquid's Arm Ocelot - Liquid's voice.
And unlike the Japanese version where Ocelot's voice actor died, the US version did not have that limitation. So they could've brought in Cam Clarke to voice Liquid Ocelot. But they didn't.
Despite all the retcons, the facts still speak for themselves.
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john
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Post by john on Feb 13, 2011 14:49:05 GMT -5
Liquid's mind being housed inside Ocelot's body could be interpreted metaphorically. Plus, some pages of some articles are written in two contexts; pre-MGS4 spoiler and post-MGS4 spoiler. I believe that line wasn't blocked by the Spoiler Lock so it's stance in the canon is ambiguous.
Kojima said he would explain how Liquid was able to "posses" Ocelot in an interview (Metal Gear Saga.) All we got was Big Boss' explanation. So nothing changed between MGS2 or 4. Either he was possessed all along or it was just psychotherapy and nanomachines.
I do believe the arm had something to do with Ocelot "transplanting" Liquid's personality onto his own, but not in the context of channeling spirits. The database mentions Ocelot's psyche being thrown out of balance, but that doesn't mean he was possessed.
The voice thing could be interpreted as just something the player heard. Otherwise, why didn't Snake or anyone else point out the difference? I believe Ryan Payton once said it would have been better if it was Ocelot's voice all along. That, or Kojima simply pulled another Vamp (why is be able to not just run, but STAND on water?)
If you absolutely must, you can just connect Liquid "possessing" Ocelot to Psycho Mantis controlling Screaming Mantis, but in that case, you also have to believe that Liquid was possessing Ocelot in MGS4.
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Post by A.G. on Feb 13, 2011 15:06:51 GMT -5
I got by the most canon of all things, the games themselves. All other sources, including Kojima are secondary.
The biggest problem is that you're overthinking the issue. Things did change. It's not complicated. Ocelot wanted to fool the Patriots, that's why he attached Liquid's arm. But it had a negative effect of being unstable. Hence he removed it and attached a prosthetic one.
Dude, his hair changed during the posession. Look at page one of this thread. There was a biological takeover.
Absolutely not. Snake recognized the voice. He knew Ocelot from Shadow Moses. He knew his voice. Yet when Liquid's voice came out, he asked "who are you?" Clearly he noticed that Ocelot wasn't speaking as himself anymore.
I've has some back and forth on this subject in this thread. There really is nothing that's shown in MGS4 that contradicts this. There was a biological takeover by Liquid during MGS2. And it fits well with the plot of MGS4. It doesn't hurt it. So I never understood why people tried to come up with reasons that it didn't happen. Ocelot's plan makes that much more sense with the MGS2 possession being real.
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Post by solidelman on Feb 13, 2011 15:51:50 GMT -5
Seconding A.G.'s post.
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john
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Post by john on Feb 13, 2011 15:57:58 GMT -5
I got by the most canon of all things, the games themselves. All other sources, including Kojima are secondary. No. The strategy guide and the database can be taken with nothing more than a grain of salt, but Kojima is god. Kojima said he would explain how Liquid possessed Ocelot in MGS2. All we got was Big Boss' explanation. Yeah, Raiden totally doesn't have a penis. Okay, sure, he got Rose pregnant, but you're over thinking the issue. It could simply be symbolic. How come Vamp can run on water when it turned out he didn't have any super powers? Those boots are only said to help him run up vertical walls. And yet when Snake hears Ocelot's voice again in MGS4, he doesn't react at all to the difference. Ocelot's tone in MGS4 did kind of change to resemble Liquid more. Combined with the fact that he artificially had the same personality, and it kind of makes sense. You're free to believe whatever you want, but don't try to treat it as fact unless you have serious evidence. Right now, both the games (the flashback to Liquid Ocelot in MGS2 during Big Boss' explanation) and outside sources, while doesn't outright contradict your claim, still strongly opposes it. |
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Post by solidelman on Feb 13, 2011 16:10:06 GMT -5
...because Ocelot now has his own voice and not Liquid's. This doesn't disprove A.G.'s post in any way.
How is this symbolic? So you're saying he didn't run on water and only the player is supposed to see it? Right...
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john
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Post by john on Feb 13, 2011 16:20:43 GMT -5
...because Ocelot now has his own voice and not Liquid's. This doesn't disprove A.G.'s post in any way. You missed the point entirely. How come Snake didn't find anything funny about Ocelot's voice change in MGS4? I'm saying sh*t changed. That's it. |
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Post by solidelman on Feb 13, 2011 16:44:25 GMT -5
I'd say 5 years and rapid aging makes you stop caring.
Also, we see Ocelot with a normal arm in MGS2, but a robotic (or prosthetic) one in MGS4. This doesn't make sense if he was using psychotherapy all along (unless Ocelot used Super Skin Paint for no reason).
It really doesn't matter anyway. It's pretty clear Ocelot wasn't the real Liquid at any point in MGS4. The debate is in MGS2, and that very same game says you mustn't pay much attention to words, but the meaning behind them. So yeah.
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Post by A.G. on Feb 13, 2011 16:48:27 GMT -5
Why should he? As far as he knows there is some crazy mixed up sh*t going on with Ocelot and Liquid being the same body. Not to mention when he first hear's Ocelot's voice in MGS4, he's going crazy from the nanomachines. So, I doubt it was on his mind that much.  LOL There is nothing symbolic about it. It changed. And if there was any indication that it's only through the players eyes, then it would've been made clear that that's what it was. As for Vamp running on water, Naomi said that the nanomachines enhanced his natural abilities. So yeah, super healing. But don't foget his agility and strength. The Fear in MGS3 had the ability to briefly run on water, or at least not sink when jumping on it: At 05:05 No reason that Vamp couldn't have had some unnatural abilities that got ampliphied by the nanos. |
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john
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Post by john on Feb 13, 2011 20:08:37 GMT -5
-By "symbolic", I meant it was just to help differentiate Liquid Ocelot from Ocelot. -Snake still could have been like "hey Otacon, somethings been bugging me. How come Liquid sounded like Ocelot, even though he's possessing his body?" Would have made for some cool foreshadowing, kind of like Otacon's "lol cood vamp b IMMORTAL?!?!?!?" at the beginning of Act 2. -While it may be true that the hair was part of Ocelot's medium powers before (as I learned in Phoenix Wright: Justice for All, body reconstruction actually does play a role in being a medium. Heh, I should start calling Ocelot "Adamska Fey"), that doesn't mean that's the case now. Kojima's intentions for Liquid Ocelot has changed to something less supernatural, just like it has with Vamp. -I can accept nanomachines making someone increase their speed to the point of being able to run on water. STANDING/SITTING on water, however... -There's a flashback of Liquid Ocelot in MGS2 when Big Boss explains sh*t. Kojima promised he would explain how Liquid could "posses" Ocelot. Big Boss' explanation is the only one we've seen in the game. Can't get any more clear than that. |
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Post by A.G. on Feb 13, 2011 20:20:55 GMT -5
Then how do you explain The Fear doing it?
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john
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Post by john on Feb 13, 2011 20:30:14 GMT -5
Running really fast =/= Standing
The Cobra Unit weren't touched for some reason. Their supernatural powers remain intact.
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